I think it goes without saying that all politicians do this. As George Will put it "A politician's words reveal less about what he thinks about his subject than what he thinks about his audience". Things have certainly changed.

I posted a "FLIP FLOP" blog last night after watching Glenn Beck .. this was a hot topic.

I think flip flopping will be a fairly mute point since both Obama and McCain have done it so much this election.

There are plenty of other reasons to dislike a candidate! haha!

cab dont you think there's more to life than being a flip flopper?

Great post on Citizen, Betty! One of the many things that really gets to me about Obama is that I believe he is now backing away from his 16 month timetable for pulling troops out of Iraq. First he said "immediately", then he said 16 months. I'm betting that he will use his upcoming visit to Iraq to acknowledge the remarkable improvements on the ground and to abandon his primary season commitment to a fixed 16-month timetable for removal of all combat troops. If I'm wrong I'll wash all of your cars - but I won't be wrong. And if I had been a Hillary supporter I would be pretty upset if this happens because I'm sure she lost a lot of support from the hard left because she wouldn't set a timetable for withdrawal. Now that Obama has the nomination wrapped up, he can do what he wants. And he is.

And then there's the whole flag pin thing. Not a big deal, I know, but during the primary campaign, he refused to wear it, explaining that he'd worn one after 9/11 but then stopped because it "became a substitute for, I think, true patriotism." Now that he's running in a general election against John McCain, and in dire need of the gun-and-God-clinging working-class votes he could not win against Hillary Clinton, the pin is back. Convenient.

cabaker!! I am so disoriented with out your cupcake!

Piper, Olbermann had a montage last night of Obama and the troop withdrawl issue. There were clips from 2 debates that took place 6-12 months ago where he said that his plans were not permanent, and of course they would take into account what is happening on the ground. He NEVER said that he would pull out regardless. He didn't say it a year ago, and he isn't saying it now.

i know i know! people are complaining about lack of cupcake, but it was time for a change!! the cupcakes will be back come fall!

Sy - I plan on finding out what that is...

Personally, I like people who are stubborn, so flip flopping really irks me, I'd rather someone just be consistent even if its wrong. But I know a lot of people don't think like that so hey whatev!

*just letting you know, as long as you're derek you're going to be getting a barrage of zoolander quotes thrown at you from yours truly.

I feel like both candidates have changed on the nuances of different issues, but neither has changed completely. Does that make sense?

cab, I'll just pretend Derek is whipping up some cupcake batter in that martini shaker. Blue Steel cupcake batter.

Also, about the flag pin...that's another one of those 'damned if you do, damned if you don't' moments, IMO. If he didn't put a pin back on, he'd be getting crap for it. And now that he has put one back on, he's still getting crap for it. I'm going to pull a Colbert and make a cookie pin to show my committment to the cookie agenda. (Sorry, just re-watched that interview with Cookie Monster and it still cracks me up).

oooh Sy i better brush up!

Other that the ridiculously good looking quote my fav is - "So I'm rappelling down Mount Vesuvius when suddenly I slip, and I start to fall. Just falling, ahh ahh, I'll never forget the terror. When suddenly I realize "Holy sh*t, Hansel, haven't you been smoking Peyote for six straight days, and couldn't some of this maybe be in your head? .... And it was... I was totally fine! I've never even been to Mount Vesuvius!"

I'm with sy about the Zoolander quotes.

"If there is anything that this horrible tragedy can teach us, it's that a male model's life is a precious, precious commodity. Just because we have chiseled abs and stunning features, it doesn't mean that we too cannot die in a freak gasoline fight accident."

I was whack.

No I was whack.

ORANGE MOCHA FRAPPACINO!

sy--"Uh, I was at a day spa. Day, D-A-I-Y-E. OK???"

There was a moment last night, when she was sandwiched between the two Finnish dwarves and the Maori tribesmen, where I thought, "Wow, I could really spend the rest of my life with this woman."

“Let me be clear: there is no military solution in Iraq, and there never was. The best way to protect our security and to pressure Iraq’s leaders to resolve their civil war is to immediately begin to remove our combat troops. Not in six months or one year – now." - That sounds to me like is saying he wants the troops out now, like yesterday. But that's just how interpret it, I reckon. But my real point of this story is that he ran a campaign that said he was against the war from the very beginning and used the fact that Hillary voted to authorize the war to his advantage. Then he went on to give a timeline, something that she would not do. And now he's more than likely going to back away from that timeline after she is out of the race. And I'm of course making the assumption that anti-war people voted for him because of his withdrawal statements.

"Derek Zoolander: Well I guess it all started the first time I went through the second grade. I caught my reflection in a spoon while I was eating my cereal, and I remember thinking, 'Wow, you're ridiculously good looking, maybe you could do that for a career.'"

How can we be expected to teach children to learn how to read if they can't even fit inside the building?

Mer-man. MER-MAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

OK, that's outta my system.

LOL at zoolander... I love the "frek gasoline accident" and
"merMAN!".. LOL

I don't wanna hear your excuses! The building has to be at least... three times bigger than this!

Brint: Or the way Hansel combs his hair?
Meekus: Or like, doesn't, it's like, ex-squeeze me, but have you ever heard of styling gel?
Brint: I'm sure Hansel's heard of styling gel, he's a male model.
Meekus: Uh, earth to Brint, I was making a joke.
Brint: Uh, Earth to Meekus, duh, okay I knew that!
Meekus: Uh earth to Brint, I'm not so sure you did cuz you were all 'well I'm sure he's heard of styling gel' like you *didn’t* know it was a joke!
Brint: I knew it was a joke Meekus, I just didn't get it right away!
Meekus: Earth to Brint...
Derek Zoolander: Would you guys stop it already?

Oh man this could go on all day! I love that movie! Just perfect!

LOL what is this a school for ANTS???

I think I'll use "Ex-squeeze me" for the rest of today.

Earth to Syako! Duh ok! I knew that!

Im actually stopping to read my own comments because I don't recognize myself!

haha!

I just keep thinking Boy that person is witty!

he's witty and ridiculously good looking!

I'm so glad I've never had a problem with self esteem!

moi aussi!

He has always said that we need to start getting out, but also that we should be "as careful getting out as we were careless getting in."

From the Sept. 26th New Hampshire Debate:
"f there are still large troop presences in -- when I take office, then the first thing I will do is call together the Joint Chiefs of Staff and initiate a phased redeployment. We've got to be as careful getting out as we were careless getting in, but military personnel indicate we can get one brigade to two brigades out per month.

I would immediately begin that process. We would get combat troops out of Iraq. The only troops that would remain would be those that have to protect U.S. bases and U.S. civilians, as well as to engage in counterterrorism activities in Iraq.

The important principle, though, is there are not going to be any military solutions to the problem in Iraq. There has to be a political accommodation, and the best way for us to support the troops and to stabilize the situation in Iraq is to begin that phased redeployment.

"I think it's hard to project four years from now, and I think it would be irresponsible. We don't know what contingency will be out there.

What I can promise is that if there are still troops in Iraq when I take office -- which it appears there may be, unless we can get some of our Republican colleagues to change their mind and cut off funding without a timetable -- if there's no timetable -- then I will drastically reduce our presence there to the mission of protecting our embassy, protecting our civilians, and making sure that we're carrying out counterterrorism activities there.

I believe that we should have all our troops out by 2013, but I don't want to make promises, not knowing what the situation's going to be three or four years out.

Has anyone read the articles that came out yesterday that the Iraqi PM is calling for a timetable for US troop withdraw?

I've read Malaki's comments and not sure I want to see where this leads.

Jill - I skimmed it, but I thought it was intersting timing.

"Iraq is not a war, it's a political debate with violent outbursts and ultimately it will require a political solution." -- Hansel, male model

It was my impression that Obama was a liberal centrist, especially compared to populists Edwards and Clinton(mandatory health care), and during the primaries it is very common to sway towards the base, which Obama did just as McCain did. I said back in April that I hoped Obama didn't promise too much to far left, as I didn't think he could or would want to change his policies. Now he is shifting back to his true colors again. McCain is still in pandering mode.

Sen. Barack Obama, D-Ill., was the most liberal senator in 2007, according to National Journal's 27th annual vote ratings. The insurgent presidential candidate shifted further to the left last year in the run-up to the primaries, after ranking as the 16th- and 10th-most-liberal during his first two years in the Senate.

After seeing what the conservatives have done for the past 8 years, I don't know if being a liberal is such a bad thing.

It is also my impression that Hillary Clinton voted to get to the White House, and not necessarily based on her personal opinion. But it is only my impression.

Based on their plans, of Edwards, Clinton, and Obama, I would say he was the most centrist. Taxing policies, public funding policies, corporate restrictions, and health care. I wish I could go into detail, but I've got to go for the day! See you all later.

Obama was against the Born Alive Infant Protection Act while in Chicago. Here's what "born alive" means in reference to the legislation:

The term “born alive,” with respect to a member of the species homo sapiens, means the complete expulsion or extraction from its mother of that member, at any stage of development, who after such expulsion or extraction breathes or has a beating heart, pulsation of the umbilical cord, or definite movement of voluntary muscles, regardless of whether the umbilical cord has been cut, and regardless of whether the expulsion or extraction occurs as a result of natural or induced labor, cesarean section, or induced abortion.

Obama opposed Born Alive in committee, but voted “present” — neither “yes” nor “no,” but merely “present” — on the state Senate floor. I don't know what constitutes being liberal but if leaving a viable baby on a table to die is a liberal view, then I'm glad I'm a conservative.

Okaaaayyyyyy, Piper, no one condones leaving a viable baby to die on a table. I am not sure where you're getting that information but A: it's disgusting, and B: it's not medically sound. It is illegal to kill a living baby once it has been expelled from the womb. End of story. You can't legislate murder, (unless you live in a Death Penalty State) and having an abortion is legal. So whatever you're describing above is either an extreme and unheard of medical scenario or it's a mercy killing because the baby was part human or part walrus.

This is an excerpt from an article written by Jill Stanek, a nurse who was instrumental in helping to pass the Born Alive Infant Protection Act:

I first encountered Barack Obama on March 27, 2001, when I testified before the Illinois Senate Judiciary Committee, of which he was a member. My testimony included my description of holding a premature aborted baby until he died:

One night, a nursing co-worker was taking an aborted Down’s syndrome baby who was born alive to our Soiled Utility Room because his parents did not want to hold him, and she did not have time to hold him. I could not bear the thought of this suffering child dying alone in a Soiled Utility Room, so I cradled and rocked him for the 45 minutes that he lived. He was 21 to 22 weeks old, weighed about ½ pound, and was about 10 inches long. He was too weak to move very much, expending any energy he had trying to breathe. Toward the end, he was so quiet that I couldn’t tell if he was still alive unless I held him up to the light to see if his heart was still beating through his chest wall. After he was pronounced dead, we folded his little arms across his chest, wrapped him in a tiny shroud, and carried him to the hospital morgue where all of our dead patients are taken."

This child wasn't part human or a walrus. It was a baby that was left to die.

Piper, Obama has said many times that when he voted "present" it was usually because he agreed with the overall bill, but it been manipulated by add ons to the point where he didn't find it acceptable. When you vote for a bill, you are voting for EVERYTHING it contains. You can't take the title of a bill and pretend that it only contains consequences implied in the title.

With many abortion bills that come through, I know that he wanted exceptions for the mother's health.

Yes, Piper, I have read that propaganda before as well.

It is hard to take those sources seriously because they are so biased and I have caught them out right lying too many times.

I have no idea what that tragic story is supposed to illuminate. The baby died shortly after childbirth. What is Obama supposed to do? Legislate it back to life? That is sophistry at its most abusive. Using that dead baby for political reasons is shameful. That "nurse" should be ashamed.

I hope this election doesn't devolve into another "who flip-flops more" debate. Beyond that, it'll be up to voters to sort of what's a true political flip-flop and what's an adjustment of policy based on new information.

Oh, and cabaker:

"Models don't think for themselves."
"Yes, they do!"
"No, they don't, Derek."
"Okay."

A great site to check out: Top 10 reasons Obama voted against the Illinois Born Alive Infant Protection Act.

http://illinoisreview.typepad.com/illinoisreview/2008/01/top-10-reasons....

whether you take those sources seriously or not Jillness, that is what is happening and does happen on a regular bases, whether you like to believe it or not.

and rac: shes not using that baby for "political purposes", she is using it to save others lives, therefore the only way is to reveal the reality. however I understand that you are possibly unable to grasp the concept