See? This is what I was saying in that other thread!!

Sad thing is, he's not wrong.

He is right.

In the end though, I don't think it says anything more profound than people are people. Women don't just vote for women, African-Americans don't have group knee-jerk reactions to anything civil rights related.

Hey -- I'm black - I live in Cali and I voted NO - discrimination is discrimination. I can't even believe it passed. I liked what Whoopi has to say on the View today.

In my experience, most African American don't see it as a civil right issue at all. They see it as a moral issue. The bible says its wrong so then its wrong. Its really sad. Anytime someone brings up that argument to me I bring up the fact that the bible was once used to support the act of slavery. Blacks voting in such a high percentage against prop 8 is sadly not surprising at all.

What other thread Fallen??

He's right. Convincing every last youth and minority in the state to turn out for Obama turned out to be a huge backfire.
I do wish that people would stop comparing Props 2 and 8, though. They are completely unrelated and BOTH overdue in their own rights. And for the records, it's not so chickens will have "enough leg room," it's so they'll have ANY leg room at all, which I think is fair (actually it's SHORT of fair, but beggars can't be choosers I suppose).

I'm in the 31% of blacks who voted NO on Prop 8. That is if my ballot was counted at all.

I know that two of my mom's sisters and at least two of her brothers voted no.

[He's right. Convincing every last youth and minority in the state to turn out for Obama turned out to be a huge backfire.]

Actually the NO on Prop 8 people where completely out numbered in my area and didn't do a good job in convincing people. (Riverside was second to San Bernardino for the most Yes votes - like 63% yes)

You can't blame Barack for that - no matter how much you want to.

The onus is on the No on Prop 8 people. The Yes on Prop 8 people went door to door, had signs everywhere and at times the people would jump in front of your cars -- and heaven forbid your window was rolled down -- they also had a HUGE church effort behind them. It was all aggressive scare statics. There were many times where I couldn't find one sign in my hood with No on Prop 8.

I talked to everyone I could on the issue and most people told me that they were going to vote NO on 8. You know that "Bradley Effect" that everyone was talking about. Well I think that happened here -- people said one thing then did another.

Does anyone know what the age break down was for the black people that voted Yes??

one thing: I love him!

so true and so sad.

salient points, all.

It is really frustrating- but don't forget, African-Americans only made up 10% of the electorate in this election, so I don't think that we can say they are solely responsible for this mess. So less than 15% of the support for Prop 8 came from African-Americans, which leaves a good deal of blame-sharing left.

But still, the irony is not lost on me that minorities did support this at such high numbers. So, freaking, sad.

*10% of the electorate in California

Now only Black and latino folk live is CA. Who knew?

i really don't think it matters who specifically voted for prop 8. the point is that it passed (sadly). and there's no point to try to blame or point the finger on minorities or different groups.

"The onus is on the No on Prop 8 people. The Yes on Prop 8 people went door to door, had signs everywhere and at times the people would jump in front of your cars -- and heaven forbid your window was rolled down -- they also had a HUGE church effort behind them. It was all aggressive scare statics. There were many times where I couldn't find one sign in my hood with No on Prop 8."

i agree dreamsugar

Unfortunately many Americans in California haven't heard of the little separation of church and state thingy we have going on.With that being said, I am offended that state legislatures let this matter be voted on by the citizens. This is not a public matter, it is a matter between a couple. If homosexuals want to legalize their union, then they should do so. They vote, and pay taxes, how come state officials let citizens discriminate against other citizens. They knew this would be rejected,because people were voting on what they were taught by their respective religion. This seems like government sponsored discrimination.

Also another thing that bothers me about this topic, aren't marriages sanctioned by churches. I was married in a church and was entered into the holy something of matrimony.( It was almost 19 years ago I don't remember the exact words), I attended a civil ceremony( man and woman) and they were not entered into holy matrimony but entered into something by laws of the locale we were in. So with that being said homosexuals aren't recognized by " God" but by state governments, unless they are married by a religous figure and I can't join them in that fight. So technically their religion doesn't recognize homosexual unions anyway and what business is it of theirs what two consenting adults do.

Unfortunately the African-American church is very homophobic. I'm pretty sure of the 69%, 100% was told by their religious leader to vote against it. I had received some bigoted material about homosexual marriage not to long ago. I'm pretty sure the "downlow" phenom that is going on in the African-American community fueled this, as well as the statistics on African-American women HIV + rates. Homosexuals are the odd men out in the African-American community. Unfortunately the religious leaders do have ammunition against them, it really isn't a matter of discrimination, but a vilification.

[Unfortunately many Americans in California haven't heard of the little separation of church and state thingy we have going on]

EXACTLY! Marriage is between you, your partner and GOD.

[Unfortunately the African-American church is very homophobic.]

Most -- if not all churches are Homophobic!

Also there was an issue that if the Gay couple in question wanted to get married in said Church and said church would turn them away the pastor could get arrested or sued -- Yeah another scare tactic.

I think those churches that donated in the fight against Gay Marriage should be taxed (aren't they not suppose to take a stance on politics - or was that only for which candidate to choose)

The irony is less than subtle but as we can see by the ferocity of the debates in the last few posts regarding Prop.8 that religious/spiritual views points laid down a clear referendum on homosexuality. A friend of mine also Gay 64 years of age shared his views with me last night. He said although this is certainly not the outcome we had hoped for if you look back only twenty years or less the liberation of Gays and lesbians has been extraordinary. As each year passes so does tolerance grow and as tolerance grows our sexual orientation becomes less important and less threatening. It is our duty to ourselves to continue to shine the light of truth and wisdom in the dark places of socialized fear. Massachusetts and Connecticut is our foot in the door now it is up to us to convince our straight brothers and sisters that we are friends that we are family and it is alright to let us in.

I do believe it is only a matter of time and I am content with that.

Apparently there is a big protest going on at the Mormon Temple in Utah regarding the passing of this proposition due to the fact the Mormon church provided needed funding to help push it through.

I believe that if they made this proposition strictly about same-sex marriage, the Mormon church would have stayed out of it, but when it includes teaching homosexuality in school is when those who wrote it stupidly crossed the line to loose all the benefits same-sex marriage would have provided. There was one man who was protesting such literature being taught to his son in school and was put in jail. That is what is really being fought here, not the union of two people who love each other and want health insurance benefits among other things.

I personally have friends who are gay and I embrace them for who they are, but I feel the lifestyle can be a very difficult and an often lonely one and I don't feel it should be promoted in school. One doesn't need to be taught how to be gay. If you are gay I am pretty sure you don't need lessons.

Here is an article detailing the injustice of forced recognition of homosexual lifestyle in school.

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=61762

"There was one man who was protesting such literature being taught to his son in school and was put in jail. That is what is really being fought here, not the union of two people who love each other"

JazzZ I agree 100% with this point. However, the ads that the Yes on Prop.8 committee aired prior to election were misleading because they were a referendum on what was going on in Massachusetts. Ca. is not Ma. we have a different constitution and different school curriculum. but the voters were deceptively lead to believe that the same thing would happen in Ca. As I've said before in another comment if that was their true gripe, concern for what their children were being taught, than write a proposition banning the teaching of marriage in schools don't take away the rights of people to get married. That's just a bad case of not thinking.

Well -- I voted no on 8 and I'm completely heart broken - discrimination is discrimination in my book. But what do we do -- where do we go from here -- I just don't know.

[JazzZ I agree 100% with this point. However, the ads that the Yes on Prop.8 committee aired prior to election were misleading because they were a referendum on what was going on in Massachusetts. Ca. is not Ma. we have a different constitution and different school curriculum. but the voters were deceptively lead to believe that the same thing would happen in Ca. As I've said before in another comment if that was their true gripe, concern for what their children were being taught, than write a proposition banning the teaching of marriage in schools don't take away the rights of people to get married. That's just a bad case of not thinking.]

I was talking about that to a friend who teaches second grade -- she said she's not required to teach marriage.

OK- here is my copy/pasted comment from the last post regarding Prop 8:

I think that religion played a huge part in many African American and Mexican American votes on Prop 8. It's unfortunate, but at the same time I am really rubbed the wrong way that this information has been floating around in all of the Prop 8 articles. As a bi-racial California resident (African American and Caucasian) I voted NO on Prop 8. I have many friends (who are also African American) that voted No on Prop 8 because they know it is wrong! However, I know that I have never identified any race on my election registration, so how are they counting MY vote? As white? as black? IT SHOULDN'T MATTER! The bottom line is that Prop 8 passed because the majority of California residents voted yes. Whether they are minorities or not. Let's move away from pointing the finger and figure out how to regroup and push forward. I think releasing information like this only serves to cause more animosity between the gay and black community.

I also saw interviews about teaching kids about marriage in school and parents were really voting for that not so much the right to marry who you want. It is lack of understanding and misleading that led to this.

I agree with *Dreamsugar*. You CANNOT blame Barack for this not passing. People voted how they TRULY wanted to vote on prop 8 and everything else once they got inside the booth privately.

Stop trying to blame this crap on black America. This just goes to show that as soon as Barack doesn’t say or do what you want him do, next thing you know it’ll be a race issue.

Barack will try to do what he and his new administration can, to lift Americans back on their feet when it comes to many important issues. He wants Americans to not only LIVE proud but to mentally BE proud once again, but everything/change will not be perfect or done quickly. Barack is not there to bow down and agree with you on every little law that you want to throw at the government, to pass.

Our new President Barack Obama and ALL or ANY of black Americans should NEVER be blamed because a vote didn’t go the way you wanted it too on the ^wannabe^ new laws, or even old ones that come into play again.

And millions of white American’s voted to get Barack in the White House, it wasn’t just the young vote and African American’s that did it. I think it’s pretty apparent now that A LOT of WHITE people who were telling their friends and co –workers that they were voting for McCain, with the signs in their yards, rally’s, pins on their shirts and so on, honestly had it in mind to do the opposite once they stepped inside that voting booth alone. They knew no one would see who they voted for, meaning of course choosing Obama instead of McCain. Barack Obama turned Rep. States into Democrat, now that's amazing.

The same goes for Prop 8. People were probably saying that they were going to vote no, when they actually wanted and honestly did vote yes for Prop 8 in the end when they stood alone in the voting booth.

Again, don’t blame Barack or most of African Americans for Prop 8 not going your way. And don’t expect them to always vote for things that you or most people believe are a civil rights issues. Most people consider this as a moral issue depending on their spiritual beliefs.

Once more *shoogebooger* is right. She said....”I think releasing information like this only serves to cause more animosity between the gay and black community”

That's true...so if you want it passed then try again with a different strategy when you come at people who don’t want to vote your way. Find a way to prove to them how much it means to you and others. Don’t’ use hatred or the race issue too jump start your ideas on how to change people, it’s proven now that it doesn’t work.

And let's not forget the Mormon church that spear-headed the fight against Gay Marriage to begin with.

And again - does anyone know the break down of the AA vote?? Was it mostly young people or the older folks who voted NO -- and what about the other races???

I think it's ridiculous to point out only one race -- when all races should feel that discrimination is wrong and should have voted accordingly.

"And let's not forget the Mormon church that spear-headed the fight against Gay Marriage to begin with."

Does anybody else find it surprising that the Mormon's made this effort? I thought they want gay marriage to pass so that they could push polygamy?

Jazz: "I believe that if they made this proposition strictly about same-sex marriage, the Mormon church would have stayed out of it, but when it includes teaching homosexuality in school is when those who wrote it stupidly crossed the line to loose all the benefits same-sex marriage would have provided."

This proposition was strictly about same-sex marriage, and did not include anything about teaching about homosexuality in schools. California does not teach about marriage in schools. This is the text of the proposition: "Only marriage between a man and a woman is valid or recognized in California." Where does it say anything about schools, churches, etc? I feel that this sort of ignorance is what passed Prop. 8.

And Hypno- I agree, if your concern is teaching about marriage in schools, then why not write a proposition banning teaching of marriage in schools?

I taught in a kindergarten in NY, and I don't think we teach about marriage in schools, but sometimes my kids would ask me questions about it, they are curious about how the world works. They would ask things like, "sometimes a man and a man can be in love too right? If they are in love, can't they get married?" Kids like to be able to put things in categories, and for them, anyone who is love gets married. Was I supposed to respond, "gay people are sinners who will burn in hell"? Seriously, why is that better than just telling them the truth, that sometimes men and men do fall in love, and in some states they can get married. It's not going to scar these kids, it's going to foster tolerance. I did always tell them to go home and ask their parents about it, but I don't think shielding them from the truth is a great way to do it.

Still, that isn't teaching marriage, I don't really understand what teaching marriage is. Like: a man and a woman will fall in love at 24, get engaged a year later, get married at 26, have sex for the FIRST TIME, then the woman will have 2.5 kids, they'll get a dog, and the woman will stay at home and raise them. Then they'll spend the rest of your lives happily ever after!

I think it's inaccurate to say that black people in general are against same-sex marriage more than white people. I think it's more of a socio-economic, level of education of issue.

Look at it this way: the white and black people who voted FOR Prop 8 tend to be among the more under-educated and poorer people. Unfortunately, however, there is a larger proportion of under-educated and poor people in the black community. Which would explain why a higher percentage of black people voted for Prop 8. I don't think we're seeing a divide among races, as much as a divide among levels of education and economic status.

snowbunny: I have to say I generally appreciate your input but I think you maybe showing your own ingnorance on this issue. Being that I'm from Utah and we did not vote on Proposition 8, I did look it up on wikipedia which did state "The proponents argued for exclusively heterosexual marriage while claiming that failure to change the constitution would require changes to school curriculum and threaten church tax benefits." so it apparently did have a big enough impact that "...campaigns for and against Proposition 8 raised $35.8 million and $37.6 million, respectively, becoming the highest-funded campaign on any state ballot...surpassing every campaign in the country in spending except the presidential contest." Like I said, it they would rewrite it and just make it about marriage or even insurance benefits it might actually have a better chance of passing.

As far as children's questions about gay marriage, I agree that it is important to be very open about it and treat it as an alternative lifestyle that is normal for many people without any drama. I don't think it should be required curriculum to be studied whereby those who refuse to teach or study it can be put in jail or loose their job or diploma!

kastarte2: You appear to be misinformed about Mormons. Mormons excommunicate any members who practice polygamy and have since 1890...so, I guess that would be well over a 100 years now.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Proposition_8_(2008)

Did I read that correctly...

"Look at it this way: the white and black people who voted FOR Prop 8 tend to be among the more under-educated and poorer people. Unfortunately, however, there is a larger proportion of under-educated and poor people in the black community. Which would explain why a higher percentage of black people voted for Prop 8."

Oh give me a break *MSucre*. And when and who came up with those figures that the people that voted FOR Prop 8 were uneducated.

I am so sick of people labeling most African Americans as uneducated people that only go with the damn flow, because they cannot or have not attented college. Just because a person doesn't have your amount of money or education, doesn't mean that they're less than you and cannot comprehend a damn thing in life...including white people.

Jazz- just because the proponents claimed something does not make it true!

They don't teach marriage in the curriculum in California anyway. If the proponents of the proposition were concerned that allowing gay marriage would require it to be taught in school, why didn't they write a proposition about that? Churches don't have to marry gay couples, just like Catholic churches don't have to marry divorcees, and this proposition is about CIVIL marriage NOT religious marriage.

And, honestly, I don't give a crap about churches' tax benefits. It's fine if you don't want to marry black and white couples or gay couples, I suppose, but don't expect government tax benefits to be given to a private entity that violates the equal protection clause. Seriously, I'm an atheist, I don't need my tax money going to subsidize these churches anyway. Churches IMO shouldn't even get tax breaks, except for when they are establishing that they are doing real not for profit work, like running a soup kitchen.

And I would like to know exactly what "teaching gay marriage in schools" even means. Do you mean like, a curriculum where someone would say, "some men marry men just like some men marry women"? Or are people flipping crazy enough in this country to think it would be teachers saying "you must get gay married, it's THE BEST!"

"Like I said, it they would rewrite it and just make it about marriage or even insurance benefits it might actually have a better chance of passing."

Well, they did make the proposition only about gay marriage- I pasted the text of the proposition here. And it did pass...so...????

Jazz- so for Mormons, the definition of marriage HAS changed over the past 100 years, in fact, polygamy could be considered traditional! Just like traditionally, interracial couples couldn't get married. How fun, we really should make sure we keep embracing those traditional family values.

Wow, there is some very interesting insight posted in this thread. I as an educated black woman, voted NO on Prop 8 b/c I think it's wrong to pass legislation that strips people of their civil rights. That being said, how does the blame for Prop 8 being passed suddenly fall on the shoulders of blacks alone? Regardless of what color you are, homophobics exist in every nationality. Some people are just closed minded and judgmental. But to say that all African American churches told their congregations to pass the prop or that all African American church leaders believe one thing is such an ignorant statement! Did you even bother to listen to any of the "Urban" radio stations? They had ads running all the time backed by black churches as to why blacks should vote NO on Prop 8. It took generations for blacks and whites to get to the place we are right now. And I think it's going to take generations for everyone to get to that place again on the issue of homosexuality and same sex marriage. But blaming one race for the injustice done to gays isn't going to get society to that place of acceptance and tolerance any sooner.

I dont think anyone is saying it's soley the black people's fault. I think it is merely an observation that a race who has been so harshly persecuted in the past based on their skin colour alone would refuse civil rights to a group of people based on their sexual orientation alone. See what I mean? You'd think that black people would be able to put it into perspective and relate a bit more to the persecution homosexuals are receiving!

"kastarte2: You appear to be misinformed about Mormons. Mormons excommunicate any members who practice polygamy and have since 1890...so, I guess that would be well over a 100 years now."

Sorry Jazz. I think I got them confused with the FLDS.

MsSassy and to anyone else who's wondering as a Gay man I don't blame African Americans or any particular faith for the passage of Prop. 8. What I blame for the passage of proposition 8 is the Yes on Prop. 8 committee for deceitfully manipulating with false information their brothers and sisters into believing something that was not true. If you act on false information that has been passed to you with intent to deceive by another it is not your fault. I just find it ironic that our Christian & Mormon brothers and sisters found it acceptable to commit the sin of lieing in order prevent something else they deem a sin.

If the Yes on Prop. 8 committee were even the least bit intellectually honest their ads would have said point blank we believe that Gay marriage is a sin and that is why you should vote yes on Prop. 8, but for some reason they could not be honest and for those of you who voted yes the question you should be asking yourselves is why.

snowbunny: Apparently "Thousands in Salt Lake City protest LDS stance on same-sex marriage"
http://www.sltrib.com/news/ci_10929992?source=rss. If you weren't aware there is a very large gay population in Salt Lake City ~ (I'm thinking a lot of repressed Mormons) who obviously believe the Mormon church had more to do with the passing of Proposition 8 than the black population. I think if a lot of black people voted for Proposition 8 it wasn't because they are so uneducated but rather religious. One would have to stop believing the Bible as the word of God to support gay marriage. I personally was raised Mormon but no longer believe in the Mormon church nor in God. I believe in being one with the universe and that God is everywhere and in all the beauty that surrounds you and any miracles that abound come strictly from the power of faith. It is faith that moves mountains.

As far as your take on Mormon tradition Blacks weren't originally allowed to hold the priesthood in the Mormon church, but it was always understood that they would one day; unfortunately, they would have to rewrite the Bible and the Book of Mormon to support same-sex marriage. There needs to be a way to pass this law in a way that doesn't invalidate their religion. One of the primary arguments for the church's political involvement with prop 8 has been that if SSM is granted legal status, the church would be forced to acknowledge or even perform gay marriages. It is, therefore, an issue of religious freedom. I think it is sad myself because you can't help who you love and there are many wonderful gay couples who seem to really embrace life. Many who are much happier than many heterosexual couples. I can't imagine why God would condemn these creative, interesting people.

As far as I know interracial marriages were not forbidden in the Mormon church.

yes on 8 had a recorded message on a call to registered black voters with obama saying he opposed gay marriage. it went out for 3 days. then the message was changed because the next part of his message was that he also opposed a constitutional ban against same sex marriage and they were called on misrepresenting the facts. there was also a coordinated effort in black churches. willie brown was on the radio talking about this a couple of days ago here in the bay area (740 am).

and btw, the money from the mormons on prop 8 came from 79,000 individuals, not the mormon church. and when the united states outlawed polygamy, mormons came out against it. the "mormons" that practice it now are not in "the mormon church", but an off shoot.

Lickety ~ When the Mormon church's prophet speaks to Mormons (they do it with the belief that God is speaking through said prophet) and they, of course, do what "God" says. Whether the church uses member's 10 percent tithing or directs its members to donate money to support a new law or victims of hurricane Katrina, it is still coming from direction from the church.

Mormons and polygamy was already addressed in my comment [34] last paragraph and in kastarte2 response [39].

All discrimination isn't equal. Comparing a racial minority to homosexuals is comparing apples to oranges. Racial minorities have been discriminated against because of who they are. Homosexuals have been discriminated against based on what they do. Trying to lump homosexual rights in with women's rights, racial rights, etc does the movement a disservice. It's intellectually dishonest.

"Racial minorities have been discriminated against because of who they are. Homosexuals have been discriminated against based on what they do."

I'm sorry but just because skin color and gender are on the outside for everyone to see and sexual orientation isn't it doesn't make it any less what we are. My sexual expression is no more a choice than yours is. You know who you are sexually you know in your heart of hearts you're attracted to the opposite sex and it is just as much who you are as the hair on your head. Same goes for me.

Ditto hypnoticmix.

I'd like to add that though race is on the outside people of color still had to go through Eugenics. While skin color was obviously "who you were" white people fought hard to say that skin color was representative of lesser intelligence and being. Any group willing to discriminate against another will find reason, no matter how great the contrary.

Someone mentioned higher education being liberal or conservative, just putting this out there...

A recent paper by two sociology professors contains a useful history of scholarship on the issue and, more important, reports the results of the most careful survey yet conducted of the ideology of American academics. See Neal Gross and Solon Simmons, “The Social and Political Views of American Professors,” Sept. 24, 2007, available at http://www.wjh.harvard.edu/~ngross/lounsbery_9-25.pdf

In the sample as a whole, 44 percent of professors are liberal, 46 percent moderate or centrist, and only 9 percent conservative.

Students: Liberal-arts colleges and elite universities are even more liberal than other types of institution of higher education. In liberal-arts colleges, the percentages liberal, conservative, and moderate are 62 percent, 4 percent, and 35 percent, respectively; and in elite universities the figures are 44 percent, 4 percent, and 52 percent.

I'm not going to touch the subject of receiving higher education making you smarter or dumber, since I would first have to argue what is smart and socio-economic issues. What I will say is there is something about receiving a formal education (and being forced to read The Republic by Plato, as someone receiving said education now) that alters your political leanings and at a baser level your way of thinking and processing information.

Plato is my homeboy ...

I'm sorry about what passed in California. It came as a complete shock to me... but then again it's just representative of what much of the world, let alone the people of that state believe about gay marriage. Yesterday my cousin from Montreal (I live in Toronto, Canada) came to stay at our house. Most of my life he gave me every reason to believe that he was open-minded and a free thinker but yesterday I found out that he's against gay marriage because of our Catholic faith. I consider myself a liberal Catholic and I thought I knew him like a brother. It's really heartbreaking and I can't imagine how Californians who voted "no" feel. I think the issue needs more time, unwavering support by those who support gay rights, and one more thing. People have to realize that religions, as beautiful as they can be, are flawed because they are man made institutions. It took me some time to figure it out, but I got there eventually.

I'm not saying discrimination is right, I'm just saying it's inaccurate to lump discrimination against gay people in with discrimination with minorites or gender. It's kind of a slap in the face of Blacks to group the struggle for gay marriage in with their struggle for civil rights. 69% of them agree obviously in California.