Recently, Munich, Germany shut down a Kindergarten because the "well-being of the children in the establishment was under threat because the education process was based on the principles of Scientology." This event highlights the fact that in parts of Europe, freedom of religion does not extend to Scientology, which is not recognized as a religion — some countries even call it a "sect."
The choice of famous Scientologist Tom Cruise to play a well-known Nazi resistance leader, upset many Germans, who compared his infamous Scientology video to Nazi propaganda. Last month, a German court ruled that the government may continue spying on Scientology because the group "seeks to establish a social order that runs counter to the constitution." To get a handle on the sect designation, read more.
In Germany, as in France and other countries, the Church of Scientology has been accused of abusing civil liberties, misleading the public, and fraud. Scientology is considered a "sect" because it allegedly exploits its members financially.
Is it possible to differentiate between a religion and a sect? The question illuminates the difficulty in allowing behavior in the name of religious freedom. When people can justify any activity by claiming religious motivations, societal attempts to regulate behavior are perpetually undermined. Yet dominant religions, like Christianity, may be arbitrarily favored. How do we draw the line between religious persecution and legitimate government goals?









Forzieri
I contend myself that freedom of religion is important. However, I cannot in good faith say that the Church of Scientology is in fact a religion - mostly because of the things that it does require its members to do. Paying for courses. Cutting off members from non-Scientologist relatives and friends. All are earmarks of the behaviour of a cult or sect, rather than a true religion.
1I am with winged. I know too much and have had first hand experience with them to even remotely consider them a religion.
Where is Tresjolie?
2I agree with Winged & Cine. IMHO Scientology is nothing more than a cult. The propaganda they spew is frightening.
3I'm with Wingedkiare. All of the reasons she mentioned, on top of actually taking someone from a legitimate health institution, holding them for nine days, and only seeking to get them reasonable medical attention when it was too late? Yeaaah, I'm sorry, they are more a cult than a religion. They don't just feed you propaganda, they actually attempt to brain wash you. Personally, I do not blame the German's one bit. Yes, let people practice it if they chose, but letting them brainwash children? I don't think so.
4Agreed... nothing but a cult...
5Scientology is not a "sect", it is a cult.
I don't think it recognizes any higher being or power--to me, that's a primary determinant of what makes a religion.
The story I've heard--in years past--was that L. Ron Hubbard and some science fiction writer buddies had a bet to see who could come up with the best "religion" from scratch. That's the source of Scientology. I can't cite that for you, I picked it up along the way from going to SF conventions and hanging out with SF folks, including one or two writers and associates.
Yes, I'm a dork.
6Isn't Xenu their higher power? According to them, you can be Christian and Scientologist. Or Jewish and Scientologists. Not sure how. But according to them it is possible.
7Scientology is not a religion. It's a cult.
8I agree that in my opinion of religion, it should not require payment. Obviously, all religious institutions appreciate financial support, but I can't think of any that REQUIRE it in order to participate.
9First of all I have always refrained from any strong criticism of the Church of Scientology simply because I really don't know much about it. As for the charge that it makes its members pay for classes, well my church charges for classes we're not on the eleven o'clock news with people picketing. In fact there are many churches that charge for classes and many that do not but I don't think that's neither here nor there. I will say this though I know people who have been within the fringes of the Scientology experience and left it because they did not like it and I know a few people who have immersed themselves in the experience and come out the other side notably more confident about themselves and the gifts that they have to offer in their lives to others. I don't find them to be manipulative or obnoxious about their beleifs as some groups are there just very happy people. I'm sure that there is a much bigger picture other than my experience and I'm looking forward to reading some of the other responses.
10Xenu is their Satan. His planet was overpopulated or some bull, and so he threw them all into three different volcanoes on earth and it froze their souls. Those frozen souls ("thetans") are what cause all man's problems. You have to take their courses and shed your thetans and pay out the ass and be brainwashed and blah blah blah. I hate those guys.
11If you are elevated to the next level course and you show the slightest disbelief, they bump you back down. Assuming you don't get bumped down, it costs over $100,000 to get to the highest level. It's cuh-razy expensive. I understand tithing and paying for courses in a regular church, but 10% of your income is NOT your life savings.
12I think Scientology shouldn't be considered under the umbrella of religion, and in turn shouldn't be given the same windows of opportunity that other organized religions have.
13Well first the institution should be a religion not a business. As far as I know the Catholics, Baptists, Protestants, Muslims and Jews, etc do not charge a fee to enter in to their churches or to become members. I think they only require dedication and full or even part acceptance of their doctrine. The do not charge a fee to receive counsel and comfort from their elders or from the church. One can tithe in most of those religions but that it to show humility to their god or some such. The the tithe received by the church becomes income to run the church, provide services to members and nonmembers and to better the church as a whole. However, though tithing is suggested it is not mandatory. Members can be guilted into it but are not denied membership and church services because the choose not to or cannot afford to tithe.
With CoS your tithe entitles you to membership, additional tithing providing you with access to counsel, additional tithing provides you with access to the churches doctrine, additional tithing provides you with service from the "church" and for an additional tithe you can get comfort. If you cannot and do not pay the tithe for CoS you are not a member or are denied access to the comfort and support of the "church".
I know of only two groups that charge their patrons a fee for all services rendered one is a business and the other is the "Church" of Scientology. There are thousands of examples of how people have joined the CoS and paid for their services, membership, counsel and comfort and then when said member runs out of money to pay for said service, membership, counsel and comfort are expelled from the "church" or are asked to become indentured servants to the "church" at one of their enclaves, working only for the barest of necessities for the full benefit of the "church".
Inability to pay equals lack of access and disfellowship to members. That sounds like a business to me. And when asked to example their "religious doctrine" what they believe, how the worship, and who the worship to the countries in question - what is proclaimed by CoS mucky mucks is not a religion but a philosophy for living. One that states that the individual with proper training can control every aspect of their lives and control others who are less enlightened if they are willing to devote their financial resources to doing so.
Again, that sounds like a business. Heck that sounds a lot like those late night infomercials that profess to teach how to make money by buying and selling real estate with no money down except for the fact that you have to invest a substantial amount of money on special supplies and materials and classes to "learn" this technique.
According to the IRS which had in the past removed the CoS tax-exemption, they were a business. The were a business until they altered their doctrine to fit the requirements of becoming a tax-exempt religious institution. I don't think the Catholics or Baptists, Jews, or Muslims would alter their official church doctrine just to receive tax-exempt status in any country.
14hypno, it is not the fact that you pay for classes, but in order to get to the different levels, you have to pay a certain amount of money. If you do not have the money to pay for the "classes" then you have to act as a worker. These people do everything from cleaning toilets to being a nanny for the upper level people.
Once they get you in their hands they gain access to your accounts and withdraw money as they see fit. Once they have drained you, mostly elderly that they cannot work like the youth, they will drop you.
They also do not allow psychiatric drugs or therapies. I am not talking ritalin or anything like that, but people who are seriously mentally ill go without treatment because they are against it. Why are they against psychology, because back the Scientology first started a group of psychologist came out stating that this was a dangerous cult, and had no validity. You get rid of the psychologist you get rid of the nay sayers.
John Travolta's son has Autism, or some problem that they will not diagnose or allow treatment. They keep their children very secluded because of this reason. They don't want the lack of treatment out as public knowledge.
They have allowed many people to die on their clock. I could go into more depth but that is a lot of writing and back history and it is easily found on the internet if you would like links.
They have also been linked to many suspicious deaths, including Hubbard's own homosexual son.
Hubbard himself was a pedophile, child molesting, pill popper who had to live out the end of his life on a boat because of some legal actions against him.
I can go on. But let's start with this. Like I said, I have been very closely associated with this cult. The leaders are not good people, and prey on people with low self-esteem and/ or down on their luck.
15Unequivocally a cult.
16Also, I thought Scientology was the antithesis of religion, so how could it ever be considered as such?
I think they are very scary, but I think that way about a lot of organizations that try to manipulate large amounts of people.
I don't see how they can be held to a seperate standard from other religions. There are over 10,000 different relgions in the US, and most of them have what outsiders would consider to be unusual practices.
17While I hesitate to brand a group that considers itself a religious organization with terms like "sect" or "cult," I do think that it is interesting that the Church of Scientology has, through litigation, made itself unique in comparison to other religions.
18The US government does not recognize religious contributions as tax deductible. Because Scientologists pay so much money to their Church (for the audits conducted by the Church as part of their courses), Church members wanted the fees to be tax deductible. The Church of Scientology sued the IRS, and then entered into an extra-judicial agreement with the IRS which would allow fees paid to the Church to be tax deductible.
This is not something available to other religious groups. This poses the question: why should Scientology be considered a religion when the Church itself prefers not to be seen as a religion when it is financially beneficial to the Church to be seen as a non-religious entity?
hypnoticmix - Take a look at this video. It just brushes the surface of how terrible Scientology really is. (It goes along with what Cine said about them draining people of their savings and then discarding them.) As Cine also said, they don't allow for treatment of mental illness. They believe that you can be healed through vitamins, exercise and 'auditing'.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=rCGP-0545EU
19Jillness, if other "religions" did the same as Scientology, as I am sure their are many just like it, I would call them a cult as well.
20A Reader's Digest article of May 1980 quoted Hubbard as saying in the 1940s "Writing for a penny a word is ridiculous. If a man really wants to make a million dollars, the best way would be to start his own religion."
Thats enough reason for me to think its all BS.
Jill, its not the practices that make them different from other religons, its the money factor.
I read an awesome article once by a guy who went undercover into Scientology... shoot, I wish I could find it. If I can, I'll post the link.
21Oh and there is also if you go to youtube and type in the unfunny truth about scientology there is a great video up there too.
22Operation Clambake - http://www.xenu.net/
This isnt the article I was talking about, but it has some really good info on Scientology.
233M knows a lot about scientology. Too bad he is not here.
24Cine - The link I posted is to that video. It freaked me out the first time I saw it.
25Trix, you and me both! I could not believe what I saw. I had no idea about Project Snow White. Insane stuff.
26I gotta watch this video...
27cabaker DO IT NOW!!!!!
28Cine - I know! The whole thing is scary.
29It's not the religion of Scientology that is so offensive. While it may appear ridiculous to outsiders, people are free to believe what they want to believe - at least, they should be.
No, the scariest part of Scientology is how manipulative and greedy their MANAGEMENT is. Any other religion on this earth will let you see their scripture for free - they will talk to you about the things that believe and they will encourage you to visit their services and hear what they have to say.
Scientology will NOT let you read their scriptures. All of their information is held secret and will only be shown to you once you achieve certain levels within the church - and that is only accomplished by paying money. Lots and lots of money.
There is nothing about Scientology that is free - it's a pyramid scheme designed to fleece their members.
30Oh my God... that video is the most shocking thing I have seen in a LONG time. I almost had to shut it off.
I am speechless.
31I KNOW!!!! It is crazy! There is so much that they keep hidden from the public. They are more powerful then people realize.
32I seriously feel like I need a hug now.
33It's freaking scary. I seriously wonder what Nicole Kidman knows but doesn't talk about? And what about that guy that was extorting money from Tom Cruise for his wedding pictures & then turned up dead?
34I've actually done a lot of research about Scientology for school. I absolutely believe that it is a cult that has prospered in part due to its status as a religion. Scientology follows all 13 of Pratakanis & Aronson's "Steps of Control" that identify a cult. And wealth equals power in this world witch makes Scientolgy extremely powerful.
The Cult Awareness Network used to be a legitimate organization. When they listed Scientology at the top of their list of cults, Scientology sued, drove them into bankruptcy, and bought the organization. It is now being operated as a "Freedom of Religion" and human rights organization which is pretty much a propoganda tool for Scientology. Just to illustrate their power and control tactics.
Awareness is key and I'm glad things like this are getting a lot of press.
35Trix, I read somewhere a long time ago that the reason they got divorced was because Nicole was having so much trouble with Scientology and thinking it was dangerous. I also read that the reason she never says anything about it is because the Church threatened to make it so she would never see her kids again or hurt them if she ever said anything against the church.
Its probably all celeb gossip, but it seems plausible...
36Trix there was a story here in New York about a couple that said that Scientologists were after them, and both mysteriously died. This happened with in the last 6 months.
37Jill, I am really not shocked you view Scientology as you do as you do the Jewish, Christian and Muslim faith etc.. However, I think if you looked into what being a religion really entails, you'd realize that Scientology by practice doesn't fall under that category..
I get your view on religion, but take a look at the video posted and read up on this group.. I think you'll notice what others are saying.
38Cabaker I would not put it past them. She will not talk about Scientology and the fact her kids are being raised within the cult.
39I viewed the video, and can barely know what to say.
40Why are they allowed to exist?
This isn't a religion, but a dangerous, relentless cult that has caused a significan amount of damage and pain.
Cabaker - I read that too. They have so much money behind them, I'm sure it would be easy for them to make good on any threats.
41JovianSkies - It's the money. Money talks, bullsh*t walks.
42Yup. It is the money. Money is power. They infiltrated the Italian government as well.
43I guess I just have high expectations...
44You can do anything if you have enough money.
Makes you wonder how hard they've got Tom Cruise by the balls.
You guys are forgetting...the Personality Tests are FREE! Heee heee.....
I actually know a lot about Scientology from very reputable sources...and it DOES scare me. No doubt about that. I just feel that it is another organization where the people at the ground level think that they are supporting something benevolent, and the people at the very top are taking their money to pursue their own agenda.
I didn't know about the IRS situation, but I see that as a failure on our government's part. I know that Germany considers them a cult, but when I read something about why that was so, they said it was because they found evidence that they tried to get Scientologists elected to office in the US. I thought that MOST religions try to get themselves represented in our government, and didn't see that as being unique. If there more specifics, I would certainly be open to considering them. If I knew where they did something illegal (as opposed to being sketchy), it might change my mind.
Taking people's money is certainly terrible, but I don't see how that is different from TV evangelists telling poor people that if they send in their money, God will bless them. Unfortunately exploitation is rampant in religion, which is incredibly disgusting.
45Good night, all. I'm off to put my girlie girl to bed.
46jill, TV evangelists really don't represent the larger population of Christians.. Exploitation isn't rampant in religion itself, but like everything else, it's tainted by people misrepresenting it. While I personally have NEVER seen a TV evangelist specifically address poor people.. I do know that while there approach is obnoxious and wrong, it's not a requirement of the religion they are representing, which is not the case in scientology, and in Scientology, the $$ isn't going towards the same things as MOST Christian churches. i am sorry you've been so burned by religion and i truly mean that.
47Jillness, as for illegal activity, look into Project Snow White. There is also an incident in Italy, but I can't remember the code name.
48I understand, PhatE. I don't hold it against anyone who is Christian that some very small amounts of people do things that I think are exploitive.
I just think that it is similar to a doctor misleading a patient...people put a lot of trust in the elders in the church, and I think it can be so easy for people to misuse that trust, no matter which religion you subscribe to. Ultimately, most religions ask for faith. Having faith in something makes you vulnerable to people exploiting that, especially when it is frowned upon to question something.
And Scientology tells their memebers that the money goes to open literacy centers and the like...although whether that is true is certainly questionable.
49I read an article about this investigation, and that is part of my reasoning:
In 2007 Sen. Chuck Grassley, R-Iowa opened a probe into the finances of six televangelists who preach a "prosperity gospel" which argues that since they represent the universal King, God, they ought to be able to live like "King's Kids".
The probe follows years of reports of high living and lavish lifestyles by televangelists including fleets of Rolls Royces, huge palatial mansions, private jets and other excesses paid for with monies from, more often than not, poor television viewers who donate due the ministries incessant pleadings for tithings.
The six under investigation are Kenneth Copeland and Gloria Copeland of Kenneth Copeland Ministries of Newark, Texas; Creflo Dollar and Taffi Dollar of World Changers Church International and Creflo Dollar Ministries of College Park, Ga; Benny Hinn of World Healing Center Church Inc. and Benny Hinn Ministries of Grapevine, Texas; Eddie Long of New Birth Missionary Baptist Church and Bishop Eddie Long Ministries of Lithonia, Ga; Joyce Meyer and David Meyer of Joyce Meyer Ministries of Fenton, Mo; Randy White and Paula White of the multiracial Without Walls International Church and Paula White Ministries of Tampa.
One of my childhood friends used to like Benny Hinn...
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