go Sweden!

Glad to see the rest of the world isn't watching the poor example the US is setting concerning the LGBT community.

Way to set a great example, Sweden!

I agree, Yoga!

I wished the US would also take on this mentality.

Amazing. I seriously love Sweden.

This isn't really so much a "Sweden" issue as a Lutheran issue. In August 2009 the ELCA (the Lutheran church in the US) lifted the ban on the ordination gay and lesbian clergy, approving a measure allowing people in “publicly accountable, lifelong, monogamous, same-gender relationships” to serve as ministers.

The Lutheran church gives a lot of autonomy to individual churches, so not all churches will have or have to accept this measure (and indeed dissenting churches are leaving the denomination over it), but this is more a "Yay Lutheran!" then "Yay Sweden!" action thing - it's religious, not political, and Lutherans in both Sweden and the US (and Denmark, as well) are ordaining gay/lesbian ministers and blessing same-sex unions.

It may be more commonplace and visible in Sweden then in the US because Lutheranism is far more prevalent there - while 75% of Swedes are Lutheran, Lutheranism falls into the .3% "other" category of the Christian denominational breakdown in the United States. So it's quiet, but it's happening in the US too. Just far, far more slowly.

Thank you stardust, I was confused.

I kept thinking it's not Sweden that ordained an openly gay Bishop, it's the Lutheran Church.

Not to take anything away from Sweden by the way, just in a case like this, give credit to the appropriate entity.

Interesting Stardust -- thanks for explaining that

Thanks — I changed the confusing headline! I agree with you all that this event has a lot to do with the Lutheran church (obviously!), but it is interesting that there's something about Sweden...

This should NOT be going on in the world. I think God and Jesus are sick to their stomachs. God has to be far passed disappointed in the beings that he created. God said NO and they say YES..... and we're going to do all the immoral sins in YOUR name too.

So sad

Isn't it wonderful Sandra that you are entitled to that opinion and are allowed to express it so freely?

What I find wonderful is that everyone is entitled to his/her opinion even if it doesn't agree with mine.

What!

"Sweden has seriously got it goin on"

Um, yeah. They're sending themselves straight to Hell with this behavior. Same sex couples, gays marrying inside a major church or ANY church is morally wrong. And then the gays are allowed to adopt too.

This is not funny and should NOT be acceptable. But I guess it's good they have all their fun now, because Hell is as hot as they come, and for literal eternity too.

I'm disappointed with the obvious bias of the article. It doesn't matter what I think, it's unfair and exclusionary to some people.

The grumpy part of me (due to today's headache) wants me to tell the writer "So move to Sweden if it's so great!" but...the nicer side of me will prevail here: It's just confusing to me. If the bible, which is, I'm assuming, what these bishops use as a reference for their faith, does nothing but talk about how homosexuality is wrong, and uses the instances of God destroying the towns of Sodom and Gomorrah because they were completely populated by homosexuals, describes marriage as something that is only to be between a man and a woman...then how do they feel about being bishops in this particular faith? I mean, not once does the bible say ANYthing positive about homosexuality. It doesn't dog actual homosexuals, just the act of homosexuality. I personally think it's ridiculous and inciteful to be "homophobic" because I don't think homosexuals can help their sexual preference. But I still find it odd to see this in the church because of the aforementioned biblical references.
Can someone explain this dichotomy to me?

Jayde30 - I think it's because they believe homosexuality is a condition (ie something that can be fixed) and as such they cannot condemn a condition, only the action. The believe through prayer one can be healed from the homosexual tendencies. I know, it may not make loads of sense but that is the general thinking

Huh. Ok. That's definitely a theory. I haven't had any ideas on this whatsoever, and I've always been curious. It'd be kinda like becoming president of a club, but your lifestyle is in direct conflict to everything the club stands for...like if you join PETA and wear fur.

Jayde30, doesn't the same portion of the Bible that says homosexuality is wrong also forbid people from eating shellfish? Another portion of the Bible says that if a man rapes a woman, he should be forced to marry her. So, mainstream religion generally has no problem ignoring certain portions of the Bible. Also, some sects of Christianity read the Bible in a very literal manner, while others do not. The Lutheran Church, being somewhat close to Catholicism, likely takes a less literal view. That's just my guess though.

lchelling, if you don't like the obvious liberal slant of the Sugar site, you may want to go somewhere else.

Jayde, first, I'd suggest that you use the term "sexual orientation" and not "sexual preference."

second, a lot of what "the bible says" and how we live today don't jive:

Dear Dr. Laura,

Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law. I have learned a great deal from your show, and I try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind him that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate.

I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some of the specific laws and how to best follow them.

When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odour for the Lord (Lev. 1:9). The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odour is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness (Lev. 15:19-24). The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.

Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?

I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?

A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination (Lev. 11:10), it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this?
Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?

Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev.19:27. How should they die?

I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev. 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? (Lev.24:10-16) Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev.20:14)

I know you have studied these things extensively, so I am confident you can help. Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging.

ha, chole, are we sharing the same brain AGAIN ?

runningesq - That was just plain rude. I think what I said was a perfectly civil statement and you go ahead and tell me to go? What about freedom of speech and opinion? Liberal slant or not I have a right to say if I like it or not and I won't stop voicing my opinion.

lchelling .. le sigh. the first amendment applies to the GOVERNMENT, not to privately run gossip websites. (reminds me of Carrie Prewhatsherface blabbing on about freedom of speech in a beauty pagent).

That said, of course you can say what you want. My response was that if you don't like the liberal bias of this website, maybe it isn't the place for you. I dunno -- that's why I don't hang out on Fox New's website.

I have a friend that's Lutheran, and my MIL is Catholic, as is another friend. But both my MIL and friend tell me that their churches are not in favor of homosexual priests, or gay marriage. Is this just particular to Lutheran churches in Sweden you think?

Honestly, runningesq, that was awfully rude. We should definitely be able to all disagree politely on here. We can't tell each other to leave. Ichelling, you can always report her comment if you are very offended. I find that Sugar sites are very fair in that regard.

OMG - Chloe and Runningesq - you guys are too much for me! Love it!

Sandra Biltmore - if you believe that God is sick to his stomach about homosexuality - why would he create homosexuals to begin with? I mean, really, if he's that disappointed in the beings he created, doesn't he only have himself to blame - I mean he did create them according to you.

JohnnieFauc - I daresay that since you strongly believe in hell that you'll probably be joining all those homosexuals that you believe will be there. Judge not lest ye be judged! Amazing how you can preach the word of god when it comes to other people living their lives without actually practicing it! It's funny how some people pick and choose what they are going to practice from the "good" book. I'll love my neighbors - as long as they are just like me, and I won't pass judgment on people, unless of course they are different than me. Then because those people are sinning according to my beliefs, that negates my sins of judging them. Kills me!

I dunno, Yogaforlife, I never actually read on here that anybody said they hated homosexuals. I would hope not, anyway.

Um Jayde30, where did I say someone hated homosexuals?

I did however refer to direct statements made by previous posters and commented/questioned those statements. But no where did I say they or anyone else hated homosexuals.

I just thought of something else. In regard to your comment, Yogaforlife, about God's creation of homosexuals, that hasn't actually been scientically proven yet. There are other theories. It has been proven that there is a percentage of people, who, abused as children, (largely sexual abuse) find themselves with homosexual tendencies when coming of age. It is seen as the brain's way, in these cases, of coping with these types of traumas. The reason I give this the amount of credence that I do is that two of my dearest friends are gay. And both of them were sexually abused as small children--one by a close family member.

Runningesq was NOT telling Ichelling to leave the website, she was just indicating that people who do not want to read something with a liberal slant may not be happy with what they see here in general. Unless Tres Sugar has some sort of epiphany while reading Goin' Rogue, you can expect all posts in the foreseeable future to be from a liberal point of view.

It was just the implication in "I'll love my neighbors - as long as they are just like me, and I won't pass judgment on people, unless of course they are different than me. Then because those people are sinning according to my beliefs, that negates my sins of judging them." Makes it sound as though you think the posters you were referencing hate homosexuals just because they may be different from themselves. I was just saying that I really hope that isn't true.

Okay, I'll toss a question out to you Jayde30, since you don't believe that people are born with that inclination but rather it's a behavioral development later in life.

How do you account for the number of animal species that practice homosexuality? Did your God also not create them like that and those animals were abused within their wild existence and become homosexuals due to the trauma of their abuse?

I will say, that yes - I do agree, there are most likely individuals that turn to homosexuality due to traumas or abuses sustained during childhood or other periods of their life. However, I don't doubt that there are probably more people who are born this way. I don't believe they are any different than anybody else and that they should be able to live their lives just like anyone else can.

Jayde, I said they are passing judgment. I never equated passing judment to hate.

I can believe that (that that isn't what runningesq intended.) But it did sound awfully exclusionary. I'm afraid I'm starting to sound like a hippie, but I really think we need to be much more accepting of others' beliefs on here. Why does the site need to be one way or the other? Any interesting topic should be something we could all comment on.

Yogaforlife, I didn't say that studies had shown that everyone with homosexual tendencies was born that way, but rather a percentage. And I would really hesitate before comparing human beings to animals...well, ever.

My friend, that was abused by his uncle up until age 11 (don't remember at what age it began) does tell me that his lifestyle is not something somebody would choose, because it is so difficult. So that is why I have always believed that, regardless of how, whether it be this terrible abuse or something from birth, it cannot be helped. But was originally curious as to how, when the bible seems to take this so very seriously (when compared to haircuts and burning bulls on altars , the Lutheran church makes this all work.

Jayde - as I said, the ELCA gives a LOT of autonomy to individual churches and congregations, so it's very possible that the specific Lutheran church your friend is a member of does not approve of homosexual priests and/or unions. However, the overarching governing body of the church has made in the last several months decisions and church position statements which make it known that as a whole, they are supporting and inclusive of the LGBT community. Again, this falls heavily to debate in individual congregations and does not hold true in all of them and many churches are leaving because of it. (Which the Lutheran church is ALSO very fair about .. I believe, IIRC, their policy is to allow a specific church to withdraw and keep the building if a 2/3s majority of the congregation feels they no longer should belong to the ELCA.)

For the record I am not Lutheran myself (I'm simply very interested in Bible study and religious studies, and do a lot of interfaith work with groups on my college campus) - like your MIL I'm Catholic and you're right there: the Catholic church does not approve of same-sex unions nor does it allow the ordination of openly LBGT people.

My personal opinion of that? Well, the Church as a whole is free to do what it wishes from a dogmatic perspective. However myself (and many Catholics I know, my priest in my campus Catholic ministry included!), I feel that civil marriage and the holy sacrament of matrimony are not entirely the same thing, and thus while Catholic matrimony is not open to those of the LGBT community (and should not be mandated to be such), civil marriage - which is a government-administrated social and legal contract, not a religious one - absolutely should be. My religious beliefs regarding someone's sexuality should have no bearing on secular legal rights.

In addition - runningesq, and anyone else who may not realize this - Leviticus, which is where that Dr. Laura article comes from, is from the Old Testament, which in the New Testament is declared null and void as the coming of Jesus fulfilled the covenant with God under which the laws detailed in Leviticus were created. The teachings of Christ wipe clean the slate for a new covenant to be formed - under which the dietary laws and all laws of Leviticus are no longer to be followed.

See Matthew 15:11: "not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man, but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man."

]That speaks specifically to the dietary laws, of course, but the premise that all of the laws are swept away is there and clearly detailed elsewhere in the NT.

Also, and this will be controversial of course, but the story of Sodom and Gomorrah is hotly contested and has many other meanings aside from a prohibition against homosexuality. It's often argued (quite well, in my opinion, though I have no strong stand on it either way) that the argument is instead that the people of Sodom and Gomorrah did not practice the appropriate charity and hospitality to travelers (which, as inns were far and few between in those days, was an important thing to many!).

Ezekiel 16:48-50: ''Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy. They were haughty and did detestable things before me. Therefore I did away with them as you have seen. "

These things are quite debated, and while I know this isn't the point of the OP I wanted to put them out there for food for thought. I think this is a place were open (polite!) discussion from opposing viewpoints can happen nicely and appropriately and I'd like to foster it if I can.

well Jayde, personally I don't believe humans are above the natural world, rather we are a part of it. I think the belief that we are apart of the natural world is what has caused so much destruction of the natural environment.

I personally see no problem comparing some animal behavior to our own. But then I also am an atheist and don't believe in god and the bible. I have morals and believe that some things are inherently wrong - such as murder, assault, molestation of children, etc. Homosexuality seems to be a natural occurrence - you can find examples in nature, it's most definitley not morally wrong and should not be considered as bad as murder, etc.

I just want to say that Jesus loves EVERYONE!!!!!!!! no
matter what you do or who you love. and secondly i want to say that comment 19 is extremely childish and before you start posting things that you think are going to make you look smart you should do some research. Every single example you used is from the old testament. As a Christian I no longer live by the old law. When Jesus was sacrificed for our sins be broke the old covenant and we no longer live under it. I hope you understand I'm not trying to be uptight, but just as you want to be respected Christians do to.

Stardust - Thanks for the info. However, the Leviticus passage is still frequently cited by SOME Christians as being evidence of the Bible's prohibition against homosexuality, even if it was superseded by the New Testament.

Is there a tres discussion group concerning religion? One that can serve as a means to foster healthy and respectful debate?

Anon @ 38: thanks, but I'm pretty sure Jesus isn't a big fan of me. and I'm okay with that.

Chloe - I know plenty of people still quote it and while it's obviously incor, a lot of people don't know exactly why we don't follow that part of the Bible anymore (a lot of Christians included in that!) so I thought it would be interesting to add to the conversation.

Yoga - I think that would be a really awesome group to be a part of and would definitely participate if it got started up .. but it would definitely need *heavy* moderation, I'm sure.

Anon 38 - you realize that runningesq was posting a satirical letter, right?

Yogaforlife — you should start a group in Très's community!

A religious group has been started in TreSugar

Please feel free to join in the daily discussion and simply express your opinion The first blog asks the question:

Is it good for gays to be ordained or is it a slap in the face to churches that stick strictly to the Bible verses that they teach?

http://religions-of-the-world.tressugar.com/6130111

"I will say, that yes - I do agree, there are most likely individuals that turn to homosexuality due to traumas or abuses sustained during childhood or other periods of their life. However, I don't doubt that there are probably more people who are born this way. I don't believe they are any different than anybody else and that they should be able to live their lives just like anyone else can."

Yoga!

Thanks, PinkNC!

I hope you drop by our first blog Tres

http://religions-of-the-world.tressugar.com/6130146?page=0,0#comment-646...

well, personally im straight. straight as can be! Im straight like an arrow. Now i have some friends who are as straight as a bowling ball. I dont judge based on sexual orientation. i wouldnt want someone to judge me over the fact i love Nissan Cars, or Martial Arts over boxing. Everyone ticks a different way.
catholic dating

Thanks for starting that PinkNC! Ha - I was afraid to be an "owner" of a group!

This might be slightly off-topic (or maybe not) but directly quoting the bible is pointless if you are going to insist on a direct interpretation of the words. It is not a complete representation of "the word of God". In fact, I would be very wary of anyone desperately holding on to it as a set "law" or example of how things should definitely be done as this shows they are not aware of what they are really referring to.
The bible is a TRANSLATION, and in some cases a TRANSLATION of a TRANSLATION, of carefully (and politically motivated) selected and consequently canonized texts - let's not forget that a whole host of texts didn't make the cut and are therefore not found in the bible. However, this doesn't negate their validity.
And there are many different translations (and revisions of translations) circulating out there in the world, each of them designed to bring across a certain message, according to the translator's (or more precisely, the contractor of the translation's) specific goals and wishes. This means that different aspects of the "original" texts may have been highlighted and/or ignored, depending on the ultimate goal.
Make no mistake, these additions/omissions/changes/manipulations are not made arbitrarily-they are decisions that are very consciously made. Changes can range from the macro-textual level (division of paragraphs, chapters, etc.) to the micro-textual level (changes in the text itself, like gender pronouns, or use of gender-inclusive language etc.). Some translations are very source-text oriented, meaning they rely very heavily on the structural and cultural elements of the original, while some are very target-culture oriented, meaning they have try to bring the message to the readers in a manner that they find relevant to the way they think and the culture they live in.
This means that when reading the bible, you should be very careful how literally you internalize the message - there is loads of room for interpretation.