men can also be victims of abuse.

I have a friend of mine who is heavily into this movement. It's not the basic ideas that I object to - because I do think that some women use abuse claims to get attention, I do think that sometimes father's parental rights are minimized by our court system. It's the angry, threatening tone of his beliefs that is so frightening.

Someone of TresSugar was talking about the True Forced Loneliness movement, which is related to this, a while back, so I looked it up. The Youtube videos are shockingly scary. On guy is supportive of the guy that went and shot up a gym because women like to "play the game."

At the end of the day it's like, "Sorry dude. I didn't know my struggle for equality was so unfair to you!"

On my campus there's a group (full of mostly annoying and often hypocritical people) that goes around shouting "Consent is sexy!" however, their message always seems to be that women can never consent to sex, ever, and that it's impossible for a man to get raped because an erection is implied consent.

I can definitely see this group of men's objection when there are school-sponsored campus groups that go around saying this type of garbage, feminists or not.

The presumption that children are better off with their mothers was formed during a time when the judicial system was populated exclusively by white men. The modern trend is to recognize that fathers deserve an equal shot at custody, and ironically, it has gained momentum as more an more women become judges. So I'm sorry, but their feminist-run court conspiracy idea is just plain wrong.

I understand some of their basic premises, but, from what I can tell, they are far too extreme and some of their other premises just make no sense (for lack of better phrasing).

For example, I do think their is a greater stigma against men who are victims of domestic violence and that this type of domestic violence is often ignored.

Although, if they knew more about feminism, they would know that it's about gender equality, not about promoting one gender over another.

I agree with a lot of the things they say, but this boggles my mind: "Battered-women shelters scam taxpayers by transferring federal money to feminists." ....umm what?

lilkimbo, I agree. I also think that women are more likely to sympathize with and support a man who has been a victim of domestic abuse, whereas other men would be the ones likely to make fun of them.

Actually, it's MUCH more common now for men to get custody (either primary or shared) than it was in the past. (ah, I see chloe said it first! you are absolutely right girlie!)

Of course men can be victims of DVs. So can women. SO? No one should be abused. I've prosecuted men for beating women and women for beating men. It's still far more common, however, for women to be the victim.

I used to actually follow a lot of men's groups online. I thought they were interesting I guess. I definitely think men can be victims and can be treated unfairly when it comes to parental rights. But I was turned off to most of the sites because they had a very anti-female tone to them.
Not all, but many did.
I think any oppression should be considered wrong but it should work for both sides. When you tear down another group in order to demand rights for your own that's wrong and that's what turned me off.
Although it is a legitimate problem. Some women can be really abusive and it's hard for a man to stand up for himself because it's turned around on him. But I think that if you want to draw attention in a good way you have to stand up for all abuse victims equally.

I didn't know whether to laugh or cry reading this. The only thing remotely serious is the issue of children being taken away from their fathers due to our messed-up court system, but the rest...I work in a chauvenist-run company. All of us educated, hard-working women are talked down to by our male, computer-illiterate bosses. And because of our fear of finding another job given the current economy, all of us are too scared to jump ship. And I'm just willing to bet that if they hired a guy to do my job, he'd get paid a whole lot better. Sorry if I sound bitter but women are still so far behind men in the fight for equality.

Oh cry me a river.

I agree that the court system use to be very bias towards the mother however times have been changing and custody cases are to. In the 90's we saw the strong emergence of Mr. Moms. Courts basically grant the stronger custody to the parent the children seem closest to if they see the need to do so otherwise it's equal custody.

As for domestic violence yes it does happen to men and men more often than not do not report it. That's not feminism's fault.

This one I'm still trying to figure out "Domestic violence laws help mail-order brides fraudulently get green cards." What does this have to do with anything? Who cares if your mail order bride has a green card.

I think they need to find a balance. MRA's and feminists. The world would be disastrous if it was extremely one way. I like to take things on a case by case basis. One abused woman doesn't mean all men abuse women. But one false domestic abuse case doesn't mean all women are liars.

lildoodet: I fail to see how the world would be a disaster if everyone was a feminist. The way I - and many people see it: a feminist is someone who cares about women and believes they deserve to life in an equal and safe world. what's so extreme about THAT?

@runningesq- thank you! the basic premise of feminism is equity between men and women, that's it's and that's all. these men's rights groups just want to turn back the clock to before feminism existed and they want to take women's sense of agency away. i really feel like a lot of their drivel is based in misogyny.

first,feminist run courts? are these people crazy? there are more male judges in the judicial system PERIOD. and more and more fathers are getting custody of their children nowadays. so if these idiots are looking for someone to blame for losing their children they should blame men: themselves and the men in the judical system.

second, i do agree that male dv doesn't isn't as recognized as it should be and something should be done to rectify that. that doesn't change the fact that it happens to women more often and is more likely to be physically devastating to women because men are typically biologically stronger then women.

This movement came about because there are a lot of angry and hurt men who feel betrayed by the current system. Despite what was said in the Double X article, men who are known abusers are not tolerated in most men's rights circles. However there are some men rights activists who do defend and accept those abusers just as there are some feminists who defend and applaud the late Valerie Solanas, despite her open advocacy of licensed violence against men.
Those people on both sides of the fence who do support such things are sick people and both groups should openly separate themselves from them.

@runningesq; the problem that exists is that as of late, there are factions of feminism that do not support "equality" but are working toward female supremacy. Unfortunately, most of the very verbal feminists will not decry those radical feminists who support that idea and those who do (Doris Lessing & Christina Hoff Sommers come to mind), are vilified as "traitors to feminism."

Is this post for real, or are people just trying to drum up traffic?
If for real here's one response.

Men are victims of domestic violence. But the ratio is extremely low.
See http://www.familylawcourts.com/kids.html

Courts have a feminist agenda?

Hardly. They have a profit making agenda. See http://www.Elkinstaskforce.org

The reality is far worse. Judges delight in gender based groups. These groups in shouting at the opposite sex, take the focus off what judges are doing, i.e. churning cases so family court is a full employment act for attorneys, therapists, custody evaluators, supervised visitation monitors, etc.

Both groups are harmful to children.

As far as feminist backed court? Consider tax-payer supported misogyny, at http://www.Familylawcourts.com/badcop.html

But there is Good news....which could easily save lives and reduce police man hours and costs.
http://www.uticaod.com/guest/x593080228/Guest-view-GPS-good-tool-in-deal...

Whatever.

As a therapist who works in a DV (domestic violence) agency. We see quite a few men as victims and never turn a man away from our hotline or services automatically. Also it's never assumed that the abuser is a man. While many men may feel it's harder for them to get services that is because it's for the safety of our client who are mostly female and like it or not most abusers are male.
the "mens rights" thing makes me irritated because it seems like it's more men just in a tizzy that they don't dominate women as much as they did (you'd be blind and dumb is you said women were completely liberated there is still a lot of oppression that goes on). It's like when I was in college a bunch of guys were pissed that they were excluded from the Zumba class, which was open just to women because a lot of women at our school felt they would like a class where they could feel less inhibited to dance in that way without feeling like guys are staring at their butts (that's what clubs are for) they protested until they were let in and then they only came to ONE class. I mean come on women are exclude from sports even in a title nine era, and these men make a stink just because they couldn't stand that women got something they didn't. Welcome guys to the world of women living in a patriarchal society.
Ok soap box over.

Are you kidding me with this crap? Fathers don't get custody because they don't want it. Geez.

I think men's rights activits are needed to confront feminists. Both groups would keep each other in check, and maybe we would (finally!) have real gender equality in this country.

The idea that either side is somehow representing gender equality all by itself, is complete bullsh*t. Although both sides are trying to push this nonsense to earn political points..

There are moderates within the Men's Rights world that I think raise a number of excellent points about DV against men (incredibly under reported, so it's impossible to say how much less frequent it is), child custody issues, and so forth. There's also talk about how men are portrayed in the media that actually has a lot to say about feminism as well - why do so many sitcoms star thin, capable women who end up basically mothering their incompetent, childlike (and often overweight) husbands? Why are so many commercials and advertisements based on gender roles in which women run the households and men don't have a clue how to cook dinner or use a laundry machine? I think the idea of some men's rights advocacy is an important and needed counterweight to some of the extremes of the feminist movement, just as I think the feminist movement is important as a counterweight to some of the extremes of the historical patriarchy.

The Double X article reminds me a lot of male critiques of the feminist movement from the 70s, though, in the ways it subtly and not-so-subtly undermines the arguments of the opposition, describing the men as bitter, grudging admissions that some of their goals "can sound reasonable" - i.e. they're not necessarily all that reasonable, just they can sound that way when the neanderthals manage to "speak in complete sentences." In other words, it reads like a hit piece that doesn't really engage the issue or some of its very legitimate concerns all that well.

If "chairman" is not a gender-neutral term, and "spokesman" is not a gender-neutral term...then it seems highly unlikely that "feminism" is a gender-neutral term. All credit to feminism for pointing out the subtle power of words, but at the end of the day, feminism is not and cannot be "dedicated to equality". Feminism is a women's *advocacy* movement... hence "the women's liberation movement".

And MRAs aren't ultimately concerned with equality either. They're simply men's advocacy groups, and also carry with them the seeds of their own obsolescence.

The only difference is that there HAS been a women's rights revolution, it was kind of a big deal, it lasted for decades, and it changed the face of Western Civilization at least, but there simply hasn't been an analogous movement for men. All the centuries-old assumptions about masculinity are still widely embraced by society.

Maybe that's part of why *eighty-six percent* of all adolescent suicides are boys.

That's not an MRA number, or a bullsh*t study by a bullsh*t think-tank funded by bullsh*t donors, that's the goddamn CDC. Source:

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2006/01/26/BAGHRGT0D...

At the end of the day, what's good for the goose is good for the gander. Many of the assumptions about women's place in society needed modernizing, and it took 30 years, but they got it. Assumptions about men remain unquestioned.

That difference can't help but be significant, and all attempts at a truly progressive, equality-focused Gender Theory will have to wait until it is addressed.

I'm a male rights advocate, and I wanted to throw in my opinion.

I hear the statement that feminism is about equality a lot, and traditionally this is true. When we look back at traditional feminist literature, we can observe a strong egalitarian undertone; and I support this. However, when we observe the past two decades of feminist "reign" (and I use that word carefully), we can observe a strong anti-male sentiment arising. Feminism has become an umbrella for female misogynists and angry women to vent their frustrations. I cannot state this strongly enough: I KNOW THAT NOT ALL FEMINISTS ARE ANGRY MISOGYNISTS. But no one can deny that this archetype has begun to appear more commonly as the mainstay of what a feminist engenders.
Every time I see or hear a story of a feminist or feminist organisation, it's always about denouncing men and empowering women. I'm tired of being marginalised. I'm a strong, honest, hard-working male. I don't beat women, I won't stand for male misogyny, and I believe in true equality. Yet feminists tell me that I'm privileged; that they deserve some of what I have, despite my hard work and dedication. They tell me that I'm a walking rape-machine; that I don't have free will. They tell me that I'm basically an animal.

The male rights movement is growing quite steadily. We're sick of being portrayed as bumbling idiots in the media. We're tired of the judicial disparity seen in the courts, in custody, child support and crime conviction and sentencing. We don't want to oppress anyone, we just want this ridiculous war that feminism has imposed upon us to end. It's hard not to draw gender lines when we're being attacked from so many angles. If I can leave you all with one thing to remember, it's that the constant attacks are actually pushing men further away from equality. We so desperately want to just get along with women now, but it's so damn hard.

I can't for the life of me understand why feminists are so scared about men receiving equality under the law.

All MRA's ask for is assumed duel parenting when a couple split, for men to be taken seriously when they claim to have been abused, for feminists to stop marginalizing the abuse of men at women's hands.

I myself have been abused by an ex and her mother. I ended up depressed and suicidal, I even had a broken rib and torn muscles because of an attack from behind.

The police don't care for male victims because feminist groups miseducate the public and police departments that only men are abusers.

Despite the claims that courts are now father friendly (equal parenting etc.) they are not. I was the SAH parent for our daughter, but guess who got full custody? Wasn't me...

So by me asking for equality under the law, to have the same protections and to not be assumed as the guilty man just because I'm male - you think that's bad?

Pathetic.

I absolutely agree with 'A feminist-run court system wrongly separates innocent fathers from children.'
My uncle's wife cheated on him with a prisoner who was on day leave. He was in prison for the murder of his ex-wife. When he got out, she left my uncle for him. Of course, she got custody of the kids, so a convicted murderer got to spend more time with my cousins than their own father, who had done nothing wrong, did. This felon physically and sexually abused my cousins and when the mother found out she did nothing about it. Yet she still kept custody of the kids. Why? Because she was the mother. SO wrong.

Thanks for your post Gareth321.. I bow before your infinite wisdom. I hope man-hating lesbian feminist take note.

One little correction, Gareth - I think you mean that you know not all feminists are motivated by misandry, not misogyny - misogyny only refers to hatred of women; misandry is hatred of men.

Though, come to think of it, misogyny is a great description of how some feminists view conservative women who don't share their politics (see exhibit one: Sarah Palin), so maybe that's right after all.

With all due respect the the MRA that came here, I think there is something that you are missing.

There is a quality of men that is oblivious to anything outside of their own perspective. This, in my opinion, is why men are so slow to recognize gay rights and women's rights. I think this is the central truth that the MRA misses.

To you, the world seems incredibly unfair because you have some disadvantages. What you're missing is how strongly the entire culture denies feminine truth, and how slanted it is towards patriarchal oppression. When you are asking for equality, I realize it seems very reasonable to you. But I would submit to you that you are blind to the injustice of the world towards women.

It's just your nature. Men have fewer emotional colors to paint a situation with. I have been in situations so frequently where the feminine perspective is derided by men, where it's seen as emotional or stupid. The truth is, we are just operating on a different level.

Amen, spacekat. Couldn't have said it better myself.

Thank you to the MRA's who stated their viewpoints. You sound like fairly reasonable humans. I'm asking you to consider the accuracy of the portrayal of feminists in modern media. Redefining a social movement to marginalize it is one of the oldest tricks in the book. When there is an organized movement against a dominant group, the members of the marginalized group are portrayed as evil, dangerous, irrational and extreme. We have seen this tactic used in the revolutionary war against the founders of this country by the British. We have seen Native Americans, Black Americans, Jews, Union organizers, ecologists and obviously Women be redefined in this way. This redefinition doesn't negate the reality that there are extremists in every movement. However, it takes the emphasis away from needed social change and puts it on how "normal Americans" can defend themselves from the so-called radicals.

You've been played MRA's. Some of the changes you'd like to see are valid, but please consider who your foes really are. Most women and feminists are not trying to create a new imbalance with women on top and men on the bottom.

While your considering the reality of the feminist movement, I will consider the reality of the MR movement.

peace, love, and soul to you all!!!

Beautifully put, Spacekat (as per usual!).

As to the men as victims: how does feminism downplay this? From my own PERSONAL experience, men are less likely to come forward as victims for fear of ridicule. This is sad and needs to be adressed, but it is not the fault of feminism or women who fight for equal rights. Most (all?) feminists I know are for the safety of ALL people in relationships.

great post taryn.

There's definitely a lot of overlap between the feminist movement and MRAs. Many feminists are normal people who want equality, not man hating feminazis.

I will say, that it's not feminists or women in general who do not recognize female on male domestic abuse or even abuse in general, it's men. If a man admits that he was assaulted by a woman, who's going to laugh at him. Likely, it's not going to be a female. I've been following a story about a Yelp reviewer who posted a negative review of a bookstore in SF. The owner, a female, wrote half a dozen bizarre, aggressive, mentally unhinged messages to this guy. Then tracked him down, showed up at his house and attacked him. When the reviewer posted about his experience on Yelp, a lot of the men were making fun of him for getting assaulted by woman. Moral of the story: know your enemy. It's not always "feminists", sometimes (often) it's other men.

I dunno, SpaceKat, I suspect that the fact that sexism against women still exists is not a good enough reason to allow men to be treated unfairly. And while I agree that differences between men and women exist, the idea that these poor, emotionally stunted men just can't understand the female experience sounds really (almost ironically) patronizing.

"Why are so many commercials and advertisements based on gender roles in which women run the households and men don't have a clue how to cook dinner or use a laundry machine? "

believe me, men like that do exist!

""I KNOW THAT NOT ALL FEMINISTS ARE ANGRY MISOGYNISTS. But no one can deny that this archetype has begun to appear more commonly as the mainstay of what a feminist engenders.""

really, your typo (you don't mean misogynist, right?) aside, i really didn't notice that. where are these radical feminists who are becoming more and more common? i don't see or hear of them doing anything. if i have to look for info on some obscure website or something, i don't think you can claim that 'noone can deny they are becoming more and more common'

"Every time I see or hear a story of a feminist or feminist organisation, it's always about denouncing men and empowering women. I'm tired of being marginalised. I'm a strong, honest, hard-working male. I don't beat women, I won't stand for male misogyny, and I believe in true equality. Yet feminists tell me that I'm privileged; that they deserve some of what I have, despite my hard work and dedication."

if you are really working harder, smarter, and more efficiently than another person who has the same job as you, i don't mind you getting paid more. in fact you should be. however if two people have the same seniority, efficiency, and position and the male is paid more, than the male is privileged, no? last i heard this was still an issue.

"this, in my opinion, is why men are so slow to recognize gay rights and women's rights. I think this is the central truth that the MRA misses...What you're missing is how strongly the entire culture denies feminine truth, and how slanted it is towards patriarchal oppression... But I would submit to you that you are blind to the injustice of the world towards women. It's just your nature. Men have fewer emotional colors to paint a situation with. I have been in situations so frequently where the feminine perspective is derided by men, where it's seen as emotional or stupid. The truth is, we are just operating on a different level."

interesting perspective and well-put, but as a woman i have never noticed the slant that you speak of, or that men in general have fewer emotional colors to paint a situation with. i think both men and women have varying amounts of emotional colors depending on the person. i'm going to keep my eyes open for the slant but i'm not sold yet. if our culture is so wrongly slanted, what would be the ideal state of american culture, in your opinion?

"I absolutely agree with 'A feminist-run court system wrongly separates innocent fathers from children.'..." your story is not typical though, its quite extreme... is it really common that a person who let the kids be abused could keep custody...? please give more details.
technically feminists would be for joint custody if they are for equality, no? and im sure mistakes and bad decisions are unfortunately made both ways, but are there any stats to prove that the courts are now run by feminists who favor women at all costs?

and the violence against men issue? if its so important to you, do something about it: set up a shelter or support group for these men. write a self help book for them, there are already equal laws for men and women to protect people from violence, what more can we do if they, as adults
(including women) don't want to seek help or tell anyone.

Running esq. you should read some of the recent statement released by NOW and modern feminist- they dont want equality or balance, they want supremacy and that is a recipe for disaster. You should have heard or read some of the statments released by NOW during the battle for the Dem. Nomination b/t Hillary and B.O they were very acerbic and counterproductive. Jayde30 im sorry for what you are going through that really sucks. but not all men think and act that way. the men that i work with are very progreesive and would not tolerate anyone being treated they way you are ..so when you find that new job, dont treat the men that are working below you the way those jerks are treating you now becuase it just leads to a very counterproductive work environment.

Actually, snowysakurasky, my story is far more common than you'd like to believe. The main point of it is, the mother was given primary custody simply because she was the mother, despite the fact that she was living with a convicted felon.

I don't know if it has anything to do with "a feminist run court system".. but unfortunately it is the way custody tends to work.

Mermei: Thanks for pointing that out. I often use the term "female misogyny" because so few people have even heard the term misandry. It wasn't even a listed word in my firefox spell-check.

Spacekatgal: When you open with a line like "There is a quality of men that is oblivious to anything outside of their own perspective", do you see how we can feel marginalised? Like you're talking down to us? You boxed all men into a singular group [as though we're all exactly the same], and then insulted us. I know that wasn't your intention, but can you imagine how you'd feel if I replied in kind? "There is a quality of women that is oblivious to anything of importance; they are full of emotional whimsy". I wouldn't disrespect you in such a way, and I expect a similar treatment.

You go on to equate the women's rights movement with the gay rights movement. The two are nothing alike; and it can be shown time and again that the primary opponents of gay rights are the religious groups, who are comprised of both females and males...

Lawdog8 is a dog. Did you catch that condescending bark of his? Not only did he talk down to the individual, but for added measure, LECTURED her too.

Towit: "...so when you find that new job, [sic] dont treat the men that are working below you the way those jerks are treating you now [sic] becuase it just leads to a very counterproductive work environment."

And the condescending dummy didn't even bother with spellcheck. Duh.

I think men are getting custody more and more. My brother got divorced 2 years ago from his wife - she decided she couldn't be married to an atheist anymore. He got full custody of his daughter, even though she was only 3. There probably are cases where men do not get custody or even shared custody, but at least for my brother, it worked out.

I work in a male dominated field (engineering) and I can personally say that I've seen inequality. Some of my male coworkers think that I'm just an overpaid secretary who's to do their filing, get them coffee, and set up appointments. Some have made remarks about me belonging at home with the children and that they'd never let their wife work. I've heard comments like a "woman couldn't possibly be a good engineer", had a client who had only dealt with me over the phone, tell me when we met in person that he just assumed I was a secretary and had no college education. Whenever somebody from the company has to go to an event so that we can show our support, the men assume that it is beneath them and automatically nominate me to go, because they can't waste their time on something so trivial. I'm lucky if I go a week without someone saying something demeaning to my intelligence or ability as a female engineer. I've already been told that I was hired for internships because the company needed to show they had diversity or because the guy interviewing me thought I was hot- um no thanks. Please hire me on my resume and capabilities.

As far as the feminist movement has come today - there is still a lot of inequality in the workplace. I can understand the men's grievances on custody and on the fact that yes - they too can be domestic violence victims. But it is possible to acknowledge that custody needs to be shared equally between both parents, and that men suffer from DV, without denying that women still face inequality.

There are extreme offshoots that will sprout from any movement including feminism BUT just because the extremists who call for female supremacy over males are there does not give this article the right to inaacurately say that "feminist society" is opressive to men. We need to re-examine the definition of feminism because it's getting lost.

I'll requote tarynitup because she said it so nicely:
Thank you to the MRA's who stated their viewpoints. You sound like fairly reasonable humans. I'm asking you to consider the accuracy of the portrayal of feminists in modern media. Redefining a social movement to marginalize it is one of the oldest tricks in the book. When there is an organized movement against a dominant group, the members of the marginalized group are portrayed as evil, dangerous, irrational and extreme. We have seen this tactic used in the revolutionary war against the founders of this country by the British. We have seen Native Americans, Black Americans, Jews, Union organizers, ecologists and obviously Women be redefined in this way. This redefinition doesn't negate the reality that there are extremists in every movement. However, it takes the emphasis away from needed social change and puts it on how "normal Americans" can defend themselves from the so-called radicals.

You've been played MRA's. Some of the changes you'd like to see are valid, but please consider who your foes really are. Most women and feminists are not trying to create a new imbalance with women on top and men on the bottom.

I beg your pardon anonymous #42!!

I'm offended and I want you to apologize.

Nope. You're just going to have to be offended. Your behavior wants the response to your behavior. In fact, you should be the one apologizing.

Oops. Typo. Should have read: "Your behavior *warrants* the response.

Ahh..no, Jerk!! Telling someone to take the high road is not offensive.