Freedom of speech anyone?

Ugh, how many times does this same tired issue get litigated. There no such thing as "Freedom of Speech" within a school! Especially a middle school!

if they ban her shirt, they need to be diligent and ban all other shirts that students are wearing that can be deemed "controversial"

I think its ridiculous that she cannot wear it.

I agree, CG. Schools are not free speech utopias, but there's nothing blatantly offensive about the flag itself. I am not a fan of any kind of censorship.

A lot of people here in the deep south seem to not understand what the flag itself represents. I have asked, and most people just have no idea. They just think it represents the south in general. For that reason, I think it shouldn't be banned. But, then again, if you have a ban on all other controversial clothing, then this would be no exception. Some people may take offense to it, just like some people might take offense to a shirt that says "f*ck you, b*tches" or something like that.

"But for many people, this argument is a smokescreen. To them, the Confederate flag unequivocally represents nostalgia for a disgraceful past, and it's not incidental that the KKK and Neo-Nazi groups use this emblem to represent their views."

Unfortunetly nostalgia, disgraceful pasts and a shared like for the symbol by racist groups do not dictate legal decisions over the rule of law.

All schools have the right to enforce a dress code. The question is...Is this symbol one of the stated restrictions in the dress code? If so the school acted appropriately. If not the school should not have reacted so quickly but rather move discreetly to ad it to the dress code and then notify the student that her attire goes against the dress code IMO.

If they decide to insight safety concerns that is an avenue that may work as well for the school in restricting the attire. Suggesting that it is likely to insight violence and puts students at to great a risk. In Los Angeles you can not wear anything that remotely looks like gang colors for that reason.

The KKK and Neo-Nazis use the flag as a symbol to represent their hateful views. One wouldn't allow a student to wear a swastika on their shirt.

And you forfeit a LOT of rights when you enter a public school as a student.

The point is more that it is a distraction. You are in school to be educated and to focus on that, not on trying to stir up controversy to get attention for yourself.

Dress codes are there for a reason, to let kids know, now, here, you are in "school mode". We all know what it is like to be in jr high and high school....so many things going on, it's amazing to me we learned anything at all.

Now if the kid wants to wear that to the park on a Saturday, more power to her. Hopefully, no one will beat her up for expressing her "freedom of speech".

zeze's got it right... this is an old issue and everyone is going to cry First Amendment, but its not. the school has every right to say what she can and cannot wear.

The confederate flag is a symbol of southern pride, yes, some groups use it for their own radical purposes but it doesnt mean that everyone who flies it subscribes to that belief.

The constitution doesn't really apply to those under 18. Look at random locker searches... there is no way the government could, without raping the fourth amendment, do "random house searches." It's about a reasonable expectation of privacy and students just don't have it.

As for the tshirt --- if the school has reason to believe that the shirt represents "fighting words" - it can ban it. There are things that are NOT protected by the first amendment (fighting words, obscenity, etc.).

ze ze you are right. This issue has been litigated and in fact the same set of facts here in this case are very similar to other cases that the Court has heard earlier about a confederate flag sticker on a tool box or lunch box, and the employers refusal to allow it to be displayed. Its really a waste of money and just being used by the girl's parents( or some special interest group, whomever is footing the legal bill) to stir controversy. Caterpillargirl, you should clarify your remarks. That flag does not represent southern pride, it represents your pride. The South is very diverse, and full of a number of ethnicity's, races, etc. and even whites that are offended by what that flag stood for and what it in fact stands for and represents to a number of hate groups.

I'm with ECULeah on this one.

"As for the tshirt --- if the school has reason to believe that the shirt represents "fighting words" - it can ban it. There are things that are NOT protected by the first amendment (fighting words, obscenity, etc.)."

I completely agree with this statement. But not for this argument. It's a Confederate flag. Yes, some groups have unfrotunately used it for evil, but I do not believe this is what most people think of when they see it. A swastika, which originally was a symbol of peace, has lost all it's former meaning, and only represents Nazism. Not so for the Confederate flag, and the only way to let the KKK take it away as a Southern symbol is to give it to them in exactly this way.

By the way, as far as freedom of speech goes, I do believe that schools have a right to ban things. I didn't mean otherwise by my first statement. After all, even when we go to work there is a dress code, but do we lose our freedom of speech when we go to work? No. I more than understand rules and laws, especially for children and teenagers, but let's not treat them as second-class citizens either.

The Confederate Flag is not a symbol of the south. It is the symbol of a "foreign" power that fought against the United States of America. It is the flag of another country...not the south. It would be the same thing as a Texan wearing the flag of Mexico and saying it represents Texas pride.

That being said, outside of school it would be a First Amendment violation but schools are legally allowed to set their own dress codes. This means it is up to the administration to decide what is or isn't allowed. The school I teach in doesn't allow shirts with images or words at all. They must be plain or simple design only. In my opinion it isn't right, but, students suspend certain constitutional rights when they step onto school grounds.

"...Candice's school district, where schools were segregated until the 1970s and separate proms were held for blacks and whites well into the 1980s."

Is Candice going to school in Boston?
I'm just asking because what the self-righteous prig writing this article says of Candice's district is true of Boston, and many other Yankee schools, but you don't hear much about THAT on the news, now, do you?

But a key point here ought to be that Candice is wearing a part of her State flag, lawdawg's blather notwithstanding.

I'm on the fence with this one (surprising, huh?).

I'm not down with censorship; but, I detest this flag. If it's deemed a distraction to the learning of students, I agree that the shirt shouldn't be worn.

I say, if a government building is allowed to freely and proudly fly the flag (aka, it's not like a swastika on a Nazi uniform in a WWII or Holocaust memorial, but flown outside along with things like the US flag and state flag) , it should be allowed to be worn in school, unless that school has had problems before if the symbol inciting violence.

After reading pretty extensively about the true meaning and history of the Confederate Flags and its many incarnations I find people simplifying it and objecting to the their notion of what it means to be a knee jerk and misguided response. I see nothing wrong with Southerners expressing their pride in their Southern hertiage by sporting the myriad of different flags that were flown by the Confederate States of America.

Freedom of speech applies to everyone whether you like what they are saying or not. Freedom of expression should be extended to everyone as well.

"Freedom of speech applies to everyone whether you like what they are saying or not. Freedom of expression should be extended to everyone as well."

While we like to think that is true, it really isn't.

I get what you are saying, the point of freedom of speech protection is to protect unpopular speech, otherwise it would be unnecessary since everyone will already like what you say - but in certain places the law just doesn't allow it, period. A middle school is easily one of those places.

"Is Candice going to school in Boston? I'm just asking because what the self-righteous prig writing this article says of Candice's district is true of Boston, and many other Yankee schools, but you don't hear much about THAT on the news, now, do you?"

Wow, you still use the word "yankee" as a slur against people who live in the Northern states? Any arguement you had loses ALL credibility. Not that it made any sense to begin with. This has NOTHING to do with Boston, or any other state besides South Carolina, because that's where this incident happened. There were many states that took years to desegregate schools, and there are still high schools in this country that have segregated proms. ('Prom Night in Mississippi,' anyone?) But the point is, I don't know of many states besides South Carolina that fly the confederate flag at their state house and claim "southern pride." I don't see Germany flying the Nazi flag and claiming "German Pride," do you?

The problem in Candice's situation is that the state and the school are sending conflicting messages. I can understand why she would be aggrivated that this symbol is flown at their state house, but she can't wear it on her clothing. I agree with the school asking her to not wear it, because I think it is offensive and distracting. I think the main issue here, though, is that the state needs to WAKE UP and realize they need to remove this symbol from the state house, because it is such a point of contention.

The only people who believe that this flag represents history and isn't offensive are the same people who use the word "yankee" against people from Northern states, and who are STILL fighting the Civil War. People claim they wear it out of respect for their relatives that died fighting for the confederate states of america. What about NOT wearing it out of respect for the people who's family members were sold into slavery, and died trying to escape it?(Newsflash: there are NO confederate states of america because they LOST the war and we are all the UNITED States of America.)Be proud of your state flag, and of the flag of your country. Don't defend something that represents racism and people who wanted to succeed from the union. We are all ONE country, and this country has ONE flag. Respect it and each other.

I think this student just wanted attention. She knew she would have her 15 minutes of fame even if a law suit came about that she lost.

And I agree... " The KKK and Neo-Nazis use the flag as a symbol to represent their hateful views. One wouldn't allow a student to wear a swastika on their shirt.

And you forfeit a LOT of rights when you enter a public school as a student."

Your statement is so true *ECULeah*

Ban it. We don't let people dress up as Nazis (except Prince Harry apparently), to celebrate "history."

"After reading pretty extensively about the true meaning and history of the Confederate Flags and its many incarnations I find people simplifying it and objecting to the their notion of what it means to be a knee jerk and misguided response. I see nothing wrong with Southerners expressing their pride in their Southern hertiage by sporting the myriad of different flags that were flown by the Confederate States of America." - wackdoodle

Thank You! This deserved a re-posting!

"'Is Candice going to school in Boston? I'm just asking because what the self-righteous prig writing this article says of Candice's district is true of Boston, and many other Yankee schools, but you don't hear much about THAT on the news, now, do you?' - TexasRed35

Wow, you still use the word "yankee" as a slur against people who live in the Northern states?" - anonymous

TexasRed35 wasn't using "Yankee" as a slur. Don't be so uptight. He was 1) making an obvious distinction between the South and other states. Plus the word "Yankee" isn't a slur. & 2) he making a valid argument. If it's OK to wear the Confederate flag in Boston, which has a similar history of segregated schools, then why is it not OK if it happens to be worn in the South?

By the way, I'm from CA, so for arguments sake, I don't live in the South. I don't want people making assumptions because I'm defending this.

TexasRed35, now that I've posted about what you stated, I'm wondering if I assumed too much. Is segregation what you were talking about? I don't want to put words in your mouth.

troyalg:

1. I am from Massachusetts, lived in Tennessee for 4 years and dated a man from Mississippi. Any time I was called a "yankee" or "yankees" were mentioned, it was not positive. You're naive if you think it's not meant in a negative context coming from anyone. It was ALWAYS used as a slur. There are other words that can be used to distinguish people from different areas of the country, so don't defend someone's words and tell someone else they are being uptight until you are positive of the context in which it is being used.

2. TexasRed35's did not have a valid arguement. Find me back up in the article mentioned here that says anything about it being ok to wear something with the conferderate flag in Boston, but not in South Carolina. First of all, the only thing you'll find in MA with the confederate flag on it is a sticker that is sold that says, "You lost the war. Get over it." Most people up here find the symbol out dated and offensive. Secondly, segregation in schools has NOTHING to do with this article or discussion. The staff member who wrote the artcile only mentioned the segregation in Candice's area to try and put into context why the school itself or other student's might be sensitive to what she was wearing.

troyalg: I was born in Massachusetts, lived in Tennessee for 4 years, and dated someone from Mississippi. I can attest that the word yankee is ALWAYS used as a slur. Don't tell someone they are being uptight or defend someone else's words until you know the context in which it was used. There are more appropriate ways to distinguish people from different parts of the country. That is not an excuse. I would never refer to someone from the south as a "redneck" just to differentiate. It's disresepctful and classless.

Secondly, where did it ever say that it is ok to wear the confederate flag in Boston, but not in South Carolina? If you had ever been to Massachusetts you would probably notice that the only thing sold with the confederate flag on it is a sticker that reads, "You lost. Get over it." Bringing Boston or any other state into this arguement is an invalid point because the girl was from South Carolina. And the staff member who wrote the article only brought up segregation to try and make a point as to why that particular area/school was so worried about her shirt causing a problem.

sorry for the double post!

I have an idea. Let's ban the British Flag because they were our enemies during the Revolution. This whole argument is ridiciculous. I'm so sick of Political Correctness.

Also, one final question, which should hopefully end this thread: did another student find this offensive, (and if so why?) or did a PC teacher make a big deal over something so insignificant?

Texasred, you are obviously uninformed and next time you should probably think before you post. The confederate symbol that the young woman is wearing is not part of the South Carolina state flag nor has it ever been and Troyalg, the confederate flag is a symbol of hate, separation, violence and a host of other negatives. The flag is used by terrorist groups like the KKK and Neo-nazi groups to symbolize just that. I am all for freedom of speech and if the young woman wanted to wear it after class or a swastika then more power to her. But, you cant honestly sit here and say that the flag isn't an affront to an entire race and that it doesn't symbolize the same things that the swastika does.

The first amendment that everyone thinks of simply does not apply in this situation. The idea of the first amendment most people have ONLY applies in very limited public forums (picketing on the sidewalk for example) and even that speech can be regulated by time/place/and manner restrictions that are content neutral. The rest of the law includes many exclusions and exceptions to the broad sense of "freedom of speech" so many have.

One of those LARGE exclusions is restricted environments, which include military, prisons, and schools. It is not that those under 18 have limited rights, its that students have limited rights, and schools can regulate any speech that is lewd or vulgar, speech advocating drug use, and any school sponsored speech (a school assembly/school newspaper). Lastly political speech (as it was in this case) actually has the most first amendment protection in schools, but can still be regulated if it substantially disrupts the school environment. (The case that set this standard was the black armband case). As runningesq mentioned the school environment exceptions do not end at the first amendment, but also apply to the fourth amendment search and seizure protections.

With that said, even though political speech is still afforded protection in schools, if the school could form an argument that it is substantially disrupting the school environment, which in this case the school obviously did, the political speech may still be banned. Schools can really make any argument, if you look at any schools dress code (many of which ban hoodies in general), schools are just usually an exception to every right mentioned in the bill of rights.

I think the main problem is most people only see the first amendment as "Freedom of speech" and never actually realize in what few circumstances that actually applies.

Lastly, I personally DESPISE/DETEST the Confederate flag and everything it stood for and still represents (at least to me). I was just saying the other day that I wish the confederate flag was banned in general, not just in schools.

Sorry for the long post--I just have so much law in my head from taking the bar exam in July.

this just aint right i think we have a freedom of speech and should be able 2 wear it bc it is heritage!!!!!

um, katie, freedom of speech is not absolute. and it's "to"