no i'm not anti-marriage and if other people just want to stay in a committed relationship, that's their prerogative.

however, what if you split up and you have no legal claim to alimony/child support, etc. and other areas that legally married couples would have access to? (is that even a problem these days?)

the only problem with marriage i have these days is that gay couples are not extended the same rights as heterosexual couples. THAT is simply ridiculous and a true offense to our notion of "equal rights."

I don't think marriage is doomed from the start, but I don't think it's necessary for commitment and happiness, either. My belief is, basically, if a relationship is going to fail, it's going to fail. You could be married or partnered for 5 years or 25 years. If it hits the fan, it hits the fan - period.

And, I'm with NicaChica on the subject of same-sex marriage.

Definately. Following experiences I've had with a decieptul, manipulative, nasty woman who tricked me into getting her pregnant and therefore managing to get herself an Australian passport and nearly a life where she didnt have to work.... I dont trust women....... and will never enter a legal contract with one.

Not just that but our society is screwed up.. and full of contradictions. The white wedding dress symbolises virginity.... but sex and promiscuity are pumped down our necks in every form of media. What bride or groom hasnt slept around before marraige?? How many marraiges last the distance?

Nowdays I'm approached by girls who openly offer casual sex.. even using those exact words sometimes... How can one get married and have a family (a sanctuary) when your partners netherregions and previous partners are well known throughout the community in which you live?

With garbage like Sex in the City on TV, it only encourages cheating, and many kids nowdays are growing up with the internet and crap like this on TV.. what hope do we have at a lasting relationship?? Gone are the Cosby shows, and Brady Bunches.. where families were something to cherish... now we're seeing Friends, Sex in the City ... etc.. which encourage people to lie, cheat, sneak, manipulate etc etc.. and people nowdays get it in their heads that if they havnt slept around. or continue to do so.. they are inferior in some way.

I wasnt married... but the experience of being completely & helplessly shafted and subsequently losing my daughter (who is an innocent in all this) is enough to turn me off all that forever.

Besides.. weddings suck. Just another product of a consumers society.. they are supposed to represent a religion or faith.. but people who dont believe in god are still getting married, and getting their kids christened. We westerners follow stupid traditions without any idea of what they represent.. its no wonder marraiges have been failing.... and in addition... its no wonder todays Gen X's & Gen Y's are steering clear of that mess altogether.

I've been married for over two years and absolutely love it. We both come from divorced families, and I think that makes us very conscious of the pain that divorce can create. We are committed to seeking whatever counseling is needed to help us through the tough times. I'm friends with two couples who got together in college and have been together for 7 years. One couple got married this June and the other will be married October. I think it is important for everyone to be on their own time line. If that time line means never being married, then others should respect the decision. Legal and medical matters could be a problem in the future for those who chose not to be married, but one should never feel forced into such an important decision.

I still believe in marriage, I think it's failings say more about people today than the institution. Marriages don't fail, relationships do. I don't think people work hard enough anymore. They are so enamored with the notion of true love, that as soon as they hit a rough patch they jump ship.

I am not anti-marriage AT ALL, but I do look at it as more of a serious move than I used to. I think that people jump into marriage more easily than they used to, and that may be reason for the high divorce rate. I am almost 28 and my bf is 31 and we've been dating for almost 2 years, and we're not even talking about it yet.

LostCause, i hope things work out for you because it sounds like you've had a lot of pain in your life and your bitterness is very apparent.

I really hope you find a way to work out your issues and hopefully find someone that will be faithful and loving to you because everyone deserves that.

Otherwise, that nastiness that you're spewing is gonna get your posts reported...

My parents have been happily married for over 30 years, and being engaged, I can't wait to get married.

My fiance comes from tons of divorce (his dad is on his 4th wife) so he's a firm believer in open commuinication and making things work. He NEVER want to go through what his family put him through.

Not to mention the additional pressures of todays modernised society. Rising interest rates are putting pressure on families... both parents are working... kids are getting their moral and ethical education from TV, the internet, other kids in the school yard.. leaving parents with only a couple hours at night to bond with, try and discipline, and be a role model to them. Its no wonder they decide to rebel and start using drugs, alcohol and having sex at a young age. Teachers are also overworked and under paid so you can forget about having the school discipline the kids.

Getting the mortgage paid off takes most people a lifetime... how many marraiges last a lifetime? This means a messy break up and a fight over custody and possessions for many former families. This is upsetting for the kids.. and can result in lifelong trauma.... its an example to kids that marraiges dont work.. and are incredibly painful things to endure.

In Australia.. the law is blatently biased towards women.. and often a woman who has never worked manages to get the kids, the house and the car.. while the poor father gets neither permission to see his kids.. or any of the possessions he has worked his entire life to build.... and in addition is required to pay child support.. which ruins any chance he has for getting his own life back together.. and in many cases that hard earned money just goes into clothes, parties.. and new boyfriends for the mother.. who now can concentrate on just having a good time, spending quality time with the kids.. and having the joy of watching them grow up. Its no wonder many men turn to drugs, alcohol or suicide.....

In my case.. my ex... worked me into the ground... she never worked.. I worked the graveyard shift so I could afford to support all 3 of us.. then she still complained about money.. and that I wasnt home enough... tell me please.. what is someone supposed to do??? Im no lawyer. Soooo while I'm having a mental breakdown from excessive work, pressure, sleep deprivation and emotional abuse... she phones the police and completely fabricates a story that I abused her and my daughter.. just to prove that she could do it.... then smirked at me while I was being dragged away to the police station. By the time I was release the next afternoon.. she had been to immigration and told them the same story.. making some kind of deal behind my back.. then she go on a plane and took my baby away... she obviously got her visa.. and assurance of money from me and the government.... so now she's having a lovely time with all this Aussie money in Argentina (which converts to a lot of pesos).. sleeping around, partying, going to Uni, shopping, raising my daughter (and probably replacing me with a new father for my baby).. doing everything she wants.. and no one will question her. Her word is like gold.. whatever she says... everyone believes. While Im still here working my ass off without any life of so to speak.

Me .. I chose to turn to drugs.. its my only temporary escape from depresion, regrets, self loathing and paranoia.... I cant imagine how much worse it would have been if I was locked into a legal contract in the form of marraige.

So yes.. i think marraige is a tradition from the past that will eventually evaporate in this modern society.

(p.s. If anyone who reads this has had a similar experience.. or has some advice to give.. I would love to hear from you. I cant afford, nor will i win any legal battles.... she has me over a barrel)

Agree with nicachica.

Pretty much every poster on this site has been screwed over (at least once) by a person they thought loved them, but most of us are looking for ways to move on to healthier relationships, not demonizing an entire gender.

Lostcause...I think you may need some counseling. Everything you claim is happening to society is simply not true in all cases and your outlook may be a bit foggy b/c of past experiences.

I think you may be finding excuses to be unhappy.

smile, life is not that bad

Nicachica & Clarapl, thanks for your comments. Sorry if I've come across nasty.. not my intention.. Yes I am very bitter as a result of my experiences... but i dont intend to 'demonise' an entire gender... Of course everyone is an individual, I just wish I had been dealt a better hand.

I am very lost, confused, upset and angry at this stage in my life, and my reason for participating in this forum is to try and involve myself in discussions and debates... to try and make some sense out of what I'm feeling and thinking. yes I can probably tone down the language a little.. but this is how I feel... and my observations of the world around me. i think I shouldnt censor my thoughts.. because I really need some help.. and hopefully someone will read this and understand exactly where Im at.

So thanks for making the effort to comment... i think a debate, or discussion needs all sides of the arument to be aired. i dont think i am out of line in any way.... My story is simply an opinion/experience of one person....

Marriage always scared me a bit when I was younger. I was the only one out of my friends that never planned or thought about what they may want, and the statistics on divorce always made me skeptical. My parents were married until I was 15, but it was never happy. I think going through all the divorce stuff made me harder on it.

Then one day I fell in love for the first time, and I actually thought you know what, I might actually be able to make a commitment to someone. That relationship didn't even get to that point, but my view of marriage has forever changed.

Hey Fab4.. thanks for your comment. I tried councelling but found it painfully boring and obvious....

It was suggested that I start seeing a Pshychologist.. which in theory sounds like a good idea. However my Ex, her mother, and her brother are all psychologists ... and I think that that analitical was of thinking contributed to our downfull. Opening our minds to a million different ways of craziness, just magnifies all the little insignificant things. My ex used to go overboard and even manage to convince me I'm lying when Im not. It simply played havoc with my mind.... didnt know if I was coming or going.

So seeing a psychologist terrifies me... so does seeing a lawyer...

I dont think being shafted and losing my daughter and my life an excuse for being unhappy... thats all my dreams and the only love of my life down the toilet..

My life is THAT bad.. I stumbled across this site after surfing the suicide forums...

I agree with eaker that relationships fail- it doesn't matter whether you are married or not. I think today too many people enter marriage with the attitude that divorce is an option, and when things get rough or life is not the fairy tale they expected they have an easier time bailing. I think a lot more people need to communicate their expectations before they get married (like through marriage counseling) so that they can make sure that they are on the same page and learn how deal with things as a couple. I also think that we need to acknowledge the importance of mentoring younger couples so that they can learn from examples of couples that have endured.

I still 100% believe in marriage. That being said, I believe in marriage for myself.. not that it's absolutely necessary for everyone!

lostcause- it sounds like your ex may have had borderline personality disorder. lots of people involved in relationships with BPD sufferers begin to question everything in life because of the crazymaking and lamplighting that went on in the relationship. I advise you to read a book called "stop walking on eggshells" and keep on seeking help (it won't be boring with a good therapist!)

Facin8me... thanks.. I'll check it out..... gonna look it up right now....

Thanks for not being judgemental

yes, i am anti-marriage for myself personally. i have not had the best role models for parents, and i experienced what divorce does to a kid. i'm a romantic at heart, a little jaded at the present time, but i do hope to find and experience exactly what dear sugar posted. something akin to a susan & tim /goldie hawn & kurt type of relationship. i think with or without the piece of paper and tax benefits, the goal is still the same: try to find someone with whom you love and want to spend the rest of your life (or at least a significant number of years).

I don't think marriage is always doomed, sometimes it works wonderfully...but...didn't marriage come about because of religon and church, and then everyone else has just joined in the tradition??? (please correct me if im wrong, that is just my understanding of it) So its just a tradition, other than religious aspects, what is the point of it??? Does it actually help relationships? What does it do??? I absoletely LOVE the idea of not being married but doing everything exactly like you are married. I have thought about doing that before but never told many people because they tend to think I am crazy (just because it is different, that makes me crazy??? grrr.) So this post makes me really happy to know that other people out there think the same thing I do.

No I am not anti-marriage personally. I plan on getting married within the next few years. My s/o and I are currently living together. I have nothing against people who don't want to get married and just spend the rest of their lives committed to each other. And I don't necessarily think that marriage leads to divorce.
But what I don't get is people who think they will avoid all kinds of disaster simply by not signing a document. People who share kids, houses, bank accounts, bills, and everything else that goes with living together still have to split these things if they happen to separate.
I think that being in a serious relationship (like you were mentioning Dear) still has the potential to end disastrously like a divorce could.
If your relationship is not stable then it won't work whether you get married or not.

I agree melyshka! Also, to me, sometimes marriage seems to just be a way to get attention, like, "hey look everybody! we are married now! woo! look at us! look at us!" I know sometimes people feel like they just love someone so much they want to tell the world and shout it out etc. etc., but the marriage stuff seems a bit much, shouldn't the love be between those 2 people? Thats what really matters, not showing off the love to the rest of the world. Again, this is other than religious aspects.

I'm not anti-marriage but I'm against people marrying b/c there's nothing better to do and they just want to outdo someone else. I have so many friends that got married b/c they were bored, they got pregnant and they're parents forced them to get married, or they just wanted to shock everyone and moving in together wasn't shocking enough lol.

I believe in marriage for myself, but I wouldn't force that belief on anyone else.

Nica I agree w/ you 100%.

My other comment is that the friends described in the post are in a bit of denial. Do they really think by not calling these things by their names, they're not doing them? I mean, making a lifelong commitment is quite similar to getting married, sans paperwork. And if these lifelong committed relationships don't last? Well, it's not technically a divorce, but I bet you it feels JUST LIKE ONE.

Sure, there are legal status and legality issues to make it different, but do they really think they can avoid the pain or mistake of a divorce by just calling it something else? Please.

PS - lostcause I'm sorry about what you are going through. I don't have personal experience in this but here's what I think anyway. It is just my opinion on the world.

We all say "everything happens for a reason." But does it really? In my view, of course not. However, we tell ourselves that it does so that we can look back and justify the bad decisions that we've made, or the bad decisions others have made that have affected us. Ultimately, I think it means we want to see the good in the world, we want to take the bad and transform it into something meaningful. We want to be able to say that all is not lost.

But in some cases like yours, the badness and the grief haven't produced anything meaningful for you yet. For you, there is nothing to say, "Well at least I have this beautiful thing now even though I went through hell to get it." I have always wondered why more people in that position don't just curl up in the fetal position. It sounds like that is what you are metaphorically trying to do - with drugs and thoughts of suicide.

I would love to tell you that everything you are going through has some deeper meaning and that something will come out of it. But perhaps this wound is too deep for that. Maybe it's just a plain old raw deal that will never fully fade.

But you can at least make a choice to let it consume you, or to keep on, knowing that there is love in the world somewhere, even though it might not feel like it at the moment.

As for your thoughts of suicide, it would be irresponsible of me if I didn't tell you: Don't do it. I read an amazing article once about interviews with people who failed in killing themselves by jumping off the Golden Gate bridge. Every single one of them reported that as soon as they jumped they wished more than anything that they could take it back. Their collective first thought was: "It wasn't really _that_ bad. There was nothing that I couldn't fix somehow."

I am not anti-marriage- good thing, since I am married
My mom got married too young and it didnt work out, but then she met my dad and they have been married for 30 years. They have been through a LOT of tough times- with health related problems with both of them and they have been so great taking care of each other. It has really given me an amazing example to follow about what a solid marriage is all about. My husbands parents have also been married for 30 years and he has just as much respect for his parents and family as I do for mine.
I hate the idea of divorce and it makes me sad to think that some of my married friends will ultimately end up divorced, which is inevitable given the stats- In fact I have one friend that is already divorced and a cousin in law who is maybe 20 and already divorced. But sometimes(like with my friend and cousin) its the best possible thing to do.

I still believe in marriage. My husband and I love each other very much and are committed to loving and cherishing each other for the rest of our lives.

I am absolutely pro-marriage. However, I don't believe that marriage licenses and wedding ceremonies make people married. As for the couples that are buying homes together and living as married couples, perhaps they are, in fact, married, but do not want to bother with a government union, which is fine by me. Either way, their relationship is only as strong and as lasting as they work on it being.

~Free

I believe marriages are like careers... the right fit is everything. You can love a job very much, but not want to do it your whole life. Society plays as if romantic love is some sort of invincible, magical miracle and that does not seem to be the case. Friendship is invincible. I'd rather live with a good friend for the rest of my life than any of the men I've dated- even in the throes of our romantic ardor. It's not that I don't believe in marriage- it's that I think wedded bliss is unlikely (al-be-it possible).

Sometimes I think marriage is the downfall for most couples and I personally don't know if I want get married. I don't believe that a piece of paper is what makes two people together for life. I think it all depends on the relationship.

I'm totally anti-marriage. the only marriages I've ever seen last, are arranged marriages. The only time I'll agree to get married is for citizenship, or to make a point haha (a friend of mine and I are considering doing it to freak out her parents. they're pretty hardcore catholics haha)

I'm still young and hopeful. I totally believe in marriage right now.

Noooo I'm very much PRO marriage! I can't wait to get married and have all my wonderful kids.

I very much believe in marriage, and my boyfriend and I are planning on getting married once we're done school. But, it's still kind of scary with the high divorce rates and the gray areas that often surround cheating (we both made it clear early on what we consider cheating). That said, I'm not going to force my beliefs on anyone if someone is anti-marriage.

when i was seventeen i almost got married- it was for legal reasons: i only had refugee status in the country i resided in and it was scheduled to expire on my 18th birthday so i had to find a way to remain in the country fast... thankfully the situation cleared up and i ended up scoring a student visa for canada! yay! so i said "sorry" and "goodbye" to the 40-year old guy i was about to marry and left. haha!

even today, that kind of marriage is still my first option should anything happen that would affect my legal status. (going back to the motherland is seriously out of the question!), HOWEVER it has done nothing to affect my views on a "real" marriage like the one my parents have.
i completely agree with susanjean's idea that romantic love as promoted by our society is not what makes a marriage last. but i know what does: i think it's very rare but on some occasions two people manage to have both friendship and romantic love at the same time. that is the ideal and what really makes a relationship last. after all, when the glittery hearts fade away (they always do, even if temporarily) you always have your best friend by your side to work things out with!

I grew in a home where my parents were married(they still are), they had some pretty rough patches and toughed it out. Seeing that and living that makes me believe in marriage 100 percent.

I definitely believe in marriage. I think many people are losing faith in marriage because they feel like they must marry regardless of whether it is right for them. Many of my friends' parents are divorced. My parents have been married for 26 years and their marriage has survived distance and debt.

i think that marriage is not for everyone.
i agree with your fried , i don't see myself getting married ever, I'm 28 years old i have a boyfriend who I'm in love with but i don't feel the need to be married to him to feel complete.

been married for 5 years and is still awesome!!! i love my husband and i can totally see us being old together...but then we both come from parents and grandparents that are still married after 20-30 years....

Yup my aunt was like that. They brought a house and had kids, but skipped out on marriage. For a while anyway...they got married about 1 or 2 yrs ago.

I am not anti-marriage but because my parents were divorced two years after I was born, and they did not have a friendly existence with eachother I am not to thrilled with the idea of it.

Don't get me wrong, I have had wedding dreams of finding the right guy, getting married and having babies, but I have things I want to do first without reservation.

I don't take marriage or anything having to do with it lightly.

I think the biggest problem with marriage today is that, as a society, we have such a short attention span. Everything is now, now, now. We quickly move from one new thing to the next, big thing. Marriage is a commitment, and it's not an easy journey to take. My parents have been married for 36 years, and there were times when I was young that they'd fight so much I'd almost wish they'd divorce. As I grew older, I realized that marriage is not always a smooth ride, and it is difficult to commit yourself to one person for the rest of your life with no clue who they or you may be in 25 years. It really is an act of faith. Realizing this has helped me think more carefully about the people I date and the relationships I create. I still want to get married in the future. I still think it is such a special thing to commit yourself that deeply to another person.

I am not ANTI marriage, but I do find the process of getting married SUCH A HASSLE.
And I am still enjoying my single life though I have been in a steady relationship for the last 5 years. While I would like us to move to a future together, I dun see the need to rush just because 'pple around us are doing so'.

And yeah, I agree with some of the comments here. I dun have the best examples of marriages around me, to make me feel really inspired to get married.

I think marriage is something that will come to me and my BF when everything feels right, not because of external expectations or pressure.

I totally believe in marriage. My mom and dad met on a blind date, and they have been married 31 years. they still grab each other's butts when they think no one is looking, and love each other madly, and proclaim they are each others' soulmates. I hope i have the same.

oh, and of course, i'm not thrilled with the idea that same sex couples are not allowed to marry. even if i'm anti-marriage, i still think that people who want to get married should be able.

I'm anti-marriage, absolutely. However, I have no opostion or skepticism about spending your life with the same person. My mom and her partner have been together for almost 20 years, and are still going strong, without ever being married.

I just don't think that marriage is a necessary process. Not in the legal aspect, anyway. Also- because I'm gay I find it offensive how exclusive marriage is.

I will probably have a ceremony someday, and I have no issue with that what-so-ever. I just have a hard time understanding why anyone feels the need to tell the government that they're in love.

Right now yes.. I always thought I would be married, I just have not found someone yet that I want to spend time with. My cable subscription is much more reliable.

Right now yes.. I always thought I would be married, I just have not found someone yet that I want to spend time with. My cable subscription is much more reliable.