Conventional Wisdom is a different kind of advice column. Your questions will be answered by people from all walks of life rather than by advice experts. Today, a librarian will offer some common sense advice. You can submit questions here.
Today's Question:
After turning 23 a few weeks ago, I started to wonder what was holding me back from finding Mr. Right. It's not that I haven't been on a date for a few weeks, or that I just keep dating a string of loser guys, it's that I have never been on a date. I didn't even have dates to high school dances. I've never even been told I was pretty/cute by a guy so that may have something to do with it. At a time in life where the majority of my friends are in relationships and are getting engaged/married, I'm all alone.
I'm starting to wonder if perhaps I am too shy to find a guy to like me, or if once I get over my shyness that my tomboyish nature forces me into the "friend zone" all of the time. (I was an only child raised by her father who treated me like a son.)
I've been told that I'm funny and smart, but I think my love of sporting events and rock concerts, knowledge of cars, and love of all things nerdy scares guys away. Do you have any advice for me so I can stop being seen as the sisterly type, and start being seen as dateable? I'd really like to find a nice guy soon. Thanks a lot for your help.
— Undateable Tomboy
To read a librarian's advice, read more.
Dear Undateable Tomboy,
The Oxford English Dictionary defines “tomboy” as “a girl who behaves like a spirited or boisterous boy.” You are 23, and it’s time to start acting like a woman, not a girl. Don’t worry right now about meeting Mr. Right; you just want to meet some misters. People have told you that you are smart and funny, but guys can’t get to know the real you because they don’t see you as date material.
Let’s talk about your outward appearance, which is what attracts a man in the first place. The first thing you should do is find a good stylist and get a great haircut. Sounds superficial? Sorry, just do it. A haircut that suits you can do more than anything to improve your appearance. Next go to the makeup counter in a department store, do a mini-makeover, and buy some products. I’m talking at least a modicum of eye makeup and some lip gloss. Accent your best facial features.
Look at your wardrobe. Anything that appears oversized, place it in the back of your closet for one month. Go to the store and buy some items that are slightly trendy, and get shoes to go with the clothes. If you don’t have a clue, ask the sales people to help you; it’s fun for them. By the way, I am a feminist who does not buy into the “beauty myth,” but consider this an experiment. (Do you want a date or not?) There is strength in looking your best, and it will give you the confidence boost that you need more than anything else. And smile, a friendly welcoming smile. That is the most attractive thing you can put on your face.
Be up front and tell your friends you are ready to meet some men. Be persistent, remind them — and, that goes for your male friends. Ask them if they know anybody to fix you up with. It might even put the idea into the head of one of your old buddies to ask you out. What about you suggesting a casual movie date to a new acquaintance, someone you meet at a party or work?
You like sports. Join a coed softball, volleyball, or kickball team. There is a lot of camaraderie on these teams, more men than women, and they tend to socialize after the games or on the weekends. Please do not wear baggy sweats.
And no more excuses about how an interest in cars and sports scares away guys. In reality, many men would love to share their interests with their girlfriends. That would definitely be a value added that you would bring to the relationship.
You sound like a very lovely young woman who does not deserve to be lonely. You will find someone who will be thrilled to have you in his life and in his arms. The challenge is to have men notice you, so that they can get to know the real you. As a librarian, I can attest that people do judge a book by its cover. I remind you that you are very young, and have plenty of time. So while you are waiting for your dating life to kick in, go to the library, check out a copy of Emma or Something Blue, make a cup of tea, and curl up on the couch.
Maison Martin Margiela
All Saints
H. Eich
I've not much to comment on the situation of the Undatable Tomboy, other than that the advice of the librarian is far too appearance-centric in my opinion.
Indeed, our first impressions are usually based on whether we find a person attractive, and the person has expressed at least some concern about not having been told she was pretty/cute by a guy, and maybe a trip to a stylist would help, but there is little attribution to fine tuning the person's attitude, which is the wall that would present itself after the issue of initial attraction is overcome. And there are plenty of men, plenty of people who don't take issue with appearance.
Undatable Tomboy mentions that she was an only child raised by her father, and that she feels she has "tomboy" characteristics. This tells me that she's has no sisters, has had limited or no contact with her mother, and though I'm not sure whether her closest friends growing up were male or female and what the intimacy level was, or what sort of dialogue there was between her and her father about dating and attraction, I come to the assumption that the person has not had a female role model to teach, directly or indirectly, the tools for attracting a mate--tools not only superficial, but largely behavioral.
Forgive me for evoking a scene that was set in a library, but in The Breakfast Club when the "Basketcase" was totally made over by Molly Ringwald, and the jock, Emilio Estevez, all of a sudden fell in love with her--though, sweet it was, it was little more than what John Hughes' screenplay commanded.
Then again, I don't know the whole story (of Undatable Tomboy; I'm well acquainted with The Breakfast Club) and am basing my thoughts on an assumption, so my thoughts likely have little relevance.
Anyway, reading the dilemma made me think of Milton's Sonnet #7, which, in the amorphous nature of fine poesy, can be easily thought of as relevant to Undatable Tomboy's situation (despite the work being chiefly about Milton's concerns about his fledgling career path).
How soon hath Time the suttle theef of youth,
1Stoln on his wing my three and twentieth yeer!
My hasting dayes flie on with full career,
But my late spring no bud or blossom shew'th [...]
Can we have more non-dating questions? I feel like women these days have so much more on their plates than just their dateability.
2@tlsgirl- thank you, i agree.
anyway in response to the question it kind of shocks me, b/c i know butch lesbians who have men come on to them one time, but you're actually straight, so i'm having a hard time understanding how you're not attracting men. a lot of men love masculine women, women who are tough and stereotypically dainty and delicately feminine. you just have to find one. i know you probably have a lot of guy friends so what about them? is there anybody dateable in group of friends? if not, how about having one of your friends set you up with someone. bottom line, don't change a thing about yourself to attract someone else because they'd be attracted to a facade that would be impossible to maintain indefinitely.
3i meant*-b/c i know butch lesbians who have men come on to them all the time, but you're actually straight, so i'm having a hard time understanding how you're not attracting men.
4As Sloane said, there are tomboys who get dates all the time. I think this probably has more to do with an inner confidence issue than anything else. Guys are attracted to women who are happy with who they are. If the root of this confidence issue is that she feels unattractive to - or that she doesn't know what to do around - men, then maybe a makeover will help makeover her self image.
For instance, I went on one date the entire time in high school. I just kept waiting for boys to notice me and how great I was, but they didn't, partly because I had a fundamental feeling of unworthiness inside that I felt a guy could fix (major bad idea, not sure where I got that), and partly since I would get so nervous, I would completely clam up around guys I liked when not in a group. At the end of my senior year and in the summer before college, I resolved to become a more confident person on my own, and not in order to get guys; a mini-makeover was part of that transition. When I showed up to college the next fall, newly confident in myself and how I looked, bang! Within a month and a half, I had a boyfriend.
So, if the makeover helps her be more confident, I'm all for it, but it should be a means to an end (better self-confidence), not the end itself.
5I have strong opinions on this issue I just have to share.
I know more than any girl should know about videogames, Star Trek and computers and other typically masculine subjects. These have always been tremendous assets in dating men, because it gives me a ton to make an instant connection on. But - I also really enjoy girly stuff, and put a ton of effort into my feminine, attractive appearance.
This librarian is absolutely right that you need both. I was always really intimidated by the fashionistas in high school, but imposed education on myself as an adult when I realized how to dress was a crucial skill for a woman. I really do believe men are secretly facinated by femininity, even though they pretend not to be.
Ultimately, this comes down to the issue of self confidence for this woman. I think 23 is the perfect age for her to discover herself and really start to build this.
Bri
6BTW Emma is a good recommendation, but the whole matchmaking game turns out quite disastrous in the book. Sticking with Austen, I'd say to also check out Sense & Sensibility, as the progression of Elinor could prove to be relevant and comforting to the advice seeker.
7I was the same way when I was younger. I didn't care about clothes or looking good. I always had a ton of male friends and they didn't see me as girlfriend material. When I was 23 I started to care about my looks, lost some weight, dressed in feminine clothing. Point is, I was still the same person but I looked better and it made a huge difference. Guys love me now because I am one of the guys and I'm a pretty girl. I think guys like girls that are the former tomboy. Don't worry there's hope for you. You'll get there.
8Spacekat is totally right - having that tomboyish streak of nerdiness is definitely an asset!
I'm very feminine on the outside - I love pink, am very into clothes, was a cheerleader for 11 years, etc. But I'm also a HUGE nerd - I love Star Wars and Family Guy and (this is a huge secret that few but my boyfriend actually know!) I play World of Warcraft. My boyfriend loves that I'm girly and soft and all that - but also loves that we can snuggle up and bicker over Star Wars minutiae.
So yeah - looking to a new look for you might help a lot, because first impressions are lasting. But don't let go of your tomboy side - in a relationship having common interests is very important too!
9Well thanks for this because even though I didn't write in, this is almost my story to a T!
I just turned 23 last week, never been on a date, or had guys interested in me AT ALL. No "female role model" for my teenage years, raised by my dad and I have a brother. So LOTS of male influence, especially when it comes to dating.
It's not that I didn't TRY to meet guys or date, of course. Sure, I started wearing makeup, dressing "better" [what the hell that means, I don't know, I still think it's stupid that women have to make themselves eye candy to attract guys], smiled more, the whole nine - and still NOTHING. Especially the confidence bit. Most of the people I know are NOT confident in the slightest, and have STILL gotten and dated some pretty good guys for long stretches of time. So I don't buy into this advice. Even so, it's still frustrating.
10If you've really NEVER been on a date before, ask a friend to fix you up with someone or try online dating. Just do something to finally get yourself in a romantic situation instead of always relating to men in a platonic way. You might not meet Mr. Right immediately, but I think it would do a lot to boost your confidence and you'd realize that being a tomboy isn't necessarily a turn off for guys.
11i totally agree with phil that the makeover answer is too pat. we all wish our problems could be solved the way they would be in any teen flick, but should this person really change who they are to get a guy? maybe some advice about how and where to meet some guys who might actually like her the way she is would be a nice start . .
12Have you ever thought of trying online dating? I met my current boyfriend on plentyoffish.com 1.5 years ago and he is the world to me. I was attracted to his profile photo first, but really connected to him by just talking online first. If you're shy, unsure about dating, or just looking to go slow, it's a great way to go about it because you can move at your own pace, and are not committing to anything you are not comfortable with. I didn't have problems meeting men in real life, but I was just tired of meeting they type of men that were out at bars. My boyfriend and I just mesh, and we did from the beginning. It's something to think about (and is highly recommended by me!!)
Good luck
13Shyness is probably your biggest hindrance. I think you need to start dating before you can worry about whether your tomboy qualities are scaring the guys off. In fact, unless you're trying to impress a guy by belching the alphabet or bench pressing him, I think the fact that you're a tomboy is a moot point.
I like the suggestion of online dating (especially when you're shy and new to dating). The more you date, the more confident you'll feel meeting new people.
Appearance is one thing. When *YOU* believe you look your best, you'll feel more confident. But I found the more importance I placed on my appearance, the worse I felt when I didn't look "perfect". Don't invest your entire self-esteem in your make-up and wardrobe. Confidence ultimately comes from within, and happy, secure people are attractive.
14umm Blargh to that advice. I have tons of "male" interests and I never got a bunch of dates in high school and had tons of guy friends. I also like fashion and make up but don't go out of my way to "girl it up" unless I feel like it. The truth is I met a guy that likes that, and I didn't have to have some after school special makeover for it to happen. Maybe you just haven't been focused on meeting guys in the past. Sometimes it's just a matter of sending out a signal that says "hey I'm interested." Don't go through some massive makeover to become something you're not just to get some guy because guess what it'll be a guy who likes what you turned into and not who you really are. Just be yourself, chill and try to be more open. If there's a guy you like, let him know. Don't play games and stay interested in your guys stuff and be honest about it. There are TONS of guys who like a girl that talk shop about whatever they are into.
15i'll be 22 next month and i also havent been on a date since i was 18 , and actually im happier this way , because i really dont have the energy for all that fuss and drama
16you can't see personality across the room. sorry babe, you've got to work it.
17I would say that you probably don't seem interested in the guys you're talking to. This could be due to the shyness or that you come off as being more interested in cars than them. I would work more on flirting than the superficial things. It honestly does come down to personality and friendliness a lot of the time.
Where are you going to meet these guys? I don't usually bring up my love for web design when I'm at a party. If the guy does mention being nerdy or being into cars or any other mutual interest, I use that topic to flirt with him - not to get into a detailed discussion about the topic. Use that as a catalyst to show you are interested. For example, "No way! I bet I could beat you at Smash Bros without breaking a sweat!" or "I don't believe you. I think I need to see this car of yours." This makes for a good segue for him to get your number or at least know that you want to see him again.
18Lol Lickety!!
I agree with the Librarian, it seems this girl has tons of the inner beauty stuff down pat (most guys I know would love to talk about cars and Star Trek without having their gf's roll their eyes) and the Tomboy just needs to spruce up the outside a little.
19Its not like she's asking to her pretend to be what she's not (for example, act dumb, act like you've never heard of Star Trek, wear pink all the time...etc). All she's saying is that nice hair and lip gloss can really get the Tomboy's foot in the door when it comes to guys.
To the Tomboy: Remember, Tina Fey was a tomboy once and now she's considered a sex-symbol even though she's a total nerdy-girlie! Don't lose who you are inside.
The librarian is spot on; absolutely brilliant advice for TomBoy! I've been there! My current friend Dougal admitted that my tomboyish appearance frightened him at first. In the end it was my confidence that won the day...but the make-up helped get me there! Oh, and, that "spot of tea" sounds absolutely terrific!
20I'd put a profile on a dating site, and I'd also stop waiting for dudes to ask you out. Be confident and start talking with a guy. If you like him, ask him to coffee. People are attracted to confident people, so hold your head high and I think you'll find people are more interested in you than you would think.
21Love it, Bellasugar!
Asking guys out is easy. It really surprises me how many guys
think girls are scary.
22spacekatgal, really? Because the "asking guys out" thing has always been difficult (read: not successful) for me. I don't believe this confidence nonsense. I know plenty of not-confident girls who have been able to enter relationships with great guys and keep them. Does not make any sense, but it's the truth.
Maybe it's just the guys I know, but they're not scared of girls, and want to do the hunting. Every guy I've asked so far has said that girls doing the asking comes off as desperate. I haven't gotten anywhere with it either, so I'm inclined to think that it's not entirely correct.
Maybe it just doesn't work for everyone...
23I think so, but your mileage will vary, margokhal. It's not so hard to ask a guy to go have coffee. If he can't or says no, just make a joke like "Oooooh. Rejection. That's cold," and move on. A bubbly personality and confidence is a huge advantage.
24Margo,maybe the girls weren't the most confident people you've ever met, but usually when a girl gets confident enough in herself to be easygoing and see a boyfriend as nice to have but not a necessity, she is willing to play and flirt with guys more, and they tend to gravitate to the fact that she's independent as well. I've seen this happen time and time again, for girls that are not confident in their social standings, in their job prospects, in their family lives, etc. It has less to do with being completely sure of yourself than being content with who you are. JMHO.
25Indeed, confidence is a huge advantage. It's also a bit of a sad reality that some men will feel threatened if the conventions of "gender behavior" are disrupted and all of a sudden they're not the one doing the "chasing." But, I think that all comes down to the issue of so-called "gender traits" and preconceptions about the role a woman "should" play in the mate selection process. Is a woman taking mate selection into her own hands desperate? No--it's assertive, and it's indicative of the extent to which a person is willing to go toward creating the most favorable conditions for themselves. It's not waiting around for a guy, and then "settling" later on. It's having your pick instead of being chosen. It's simply being proactive instead of reactive. Rejection is part that the role of the pursuer often has to concede to. But, like with any rejection or failure or shortcoming, you learn from it, adapt, and keep going smarter and fitter for the next attempt.
Then again I could be making no sense and am blinded by egalitarian idealism; it's been a long, eventful day.
26Yeah! See, margo?
You want it, go get it! Kick some bootie.
Getting a boyfriend isn't hard. Having the patience to shift through all the low quality merchandise is.
27Sigh...once I HAVE merchandise to sift!
Whatever's easy for everyone else seems to be really hard for me, and vice versa.
I just really don't believe the confidence bit. I can put on a front of at least decent confidence, so I don't think that's it. The girls that I know are not confident or comfortable in the *slightest*. Even when guys come and talk to them [which still happens even though they're IN stable, long-term relationships already!], they act ridiculously girly...they call it "vulnerable", but it really just seems idiotic and unnecessary. Whatever it is actually *works* and gets them more dates and guy friends [but not guys I would date!], though. Eh.
28I dont think the key is looking confident... What has worked for me is looking HAPPY and relaxed. Guys see that as approachable. Theres nothing wrong with being into "different" things, it is a plus. Guys like to think they have found a rare treasure, which I am sure you are. Just dont worry about it. Stop thinking of yourself as different and go with the flow.
29You know, Margo,
I'm 28, and I have to tell you - your confidence will come in time. As you get older you'll have difficult life experiences that will make you grow - in time you'll feel like you can handle anything.
I started dating at a really young age, 13. But I remember how intensely I wanted a boyfriend, and how much in verified to me internally that I was a "catch" when I did get one. So I really do understand your thoughts about confidence.
I love reading your comments on Sugar, and know you've got a great personality. Maybe taking some chances with boys would be a learning experience?
Bri
30I think this Librarian is a fountain of wisdom.
31Should the young lady follow up on her suggestions, I am sure even the guys in her 'friend zone' and support system will look at her as a woman, perhaps surprised they didn't notice her before. Heck with fixing you up, let's go out, baby!
On the other hand, where do I find a Librarian?
Like this one, I mean... Even the photo is rather sexy: Women and books, a perfect combination! Is that a pencil skirt, by the way?
Thanks!
There's a point on the comments about going out with a personality that's not her own, or, at lest, not her usual personality. However, if she's asking for help, perhaps she'd be open to the power of transformation. What Librarian recommends here, would help her out not just on her dating projects, but also on her overall career. I think...
32Thanks.
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