we need a second opinion.

i am okay with some sort or local socialism. But never for federal level. Too easy to get corrupted. And states were meant to have the control in this country and the federal government has been taking advantage of the states not pushing their rights. It is time to stand up against this. I for one am p/o because my california taxes are ridiculously high. My car registartion was $400, plus sales tax went up and gas tax went up, since I owe the state because of all of this crazy bullsh*t now I have to have a penalty tacked on as well. It's f-ing nuts. and this is what socialism will get you.

This post is misleading-
the actual report says The latest Rasmussen Reports national telephone survey found that 20% disagree and say socialism is better. Twenty-seven percent (27%) are not sure which is better.
So only 20% of people actually think socialism is better.
But they make it sound as if we are nearly evenly split, when what it really is is that people don't even know the difference.

You can find a study for just about anything anymore.
*Don't like Diet Coke? There's a study that says it's unhealthy.
*Like Diet Coke? There's a study that says regular is worse.

There is also a study that shows that 3 out of 10 people make up 30% of the population.

And who did they survey? Did these people even know the difference? geez

I don't drink Coke, period.

Not surprised. Capitalism is dog eat dog. If you're not a big enough dog with sharp enough teeth you're left out in the cold.

I do think that capitalism does need some minor reform but my real issue is the fact that we embrace such an unforgiving system while not holding up our rhetoric to insure that everyone has an equal opportunity to be prosperous.

We've stood by for decades and allowed our education system to crumble around us and as a result our future (our children) to fall through the cracks ill prepared for college and real life. These are capitalism's growing victims they don't have what it takes there for their the little dogs that get left out in the cold.

Smaine, it was a Rasmussen report on a survey.

What has been posted is incomplete though. he also said in the same report:

"It is interesting to compare the new results to an earlier survey in which 70% of Americans prefer a free-market economy. The fact that a “free-market economy” attracts substantially more support than “capitalism” may suggest some skepticism about whether capitalism in the United States today relies on free markets.

Other survey data supports that notion. Rather than seeing large corporations as committed to free markets, two-out-of-three Americans believe that big government and big business often work together in ways that hurt consumers and investors.

Fifteen percent (15%) of Americans say they prefer a government-managed economy, similar to the 20% support for socialism. Just 14% believe the federal government would do a better job running auto companies, and even fewer believe government would do a better job running financial firms."

Hypno, you wrote: "We've stood by for decades and allowed our education system to crumble around us and as a result our future (our children) to fall through the cracks ill prepared for college and real life. These are capitalism's growing victims.."

You have it exactly reversed, every attempt to bring competition into the education system as been frustrated. If vouchers were allowed, we would have had the competition amongst schools forcing them to improve to stay viable. Every where it has been tried it has worked. it is a crime of epic proportions that hidden in the stimulus bill was an item that stopped vouchers in Washington DC.

Grandpa all you would have is rich schools getting richer and poor schools still getting no money. Yes the rich schools would be magnificent in fact maybe even stellar but my point is good consistant education for all regardless of location or school.

LOL! It's hillarious calling you Grandpa.

i agree with hainan57.
this post is misleading.

hypno, I figure I am probably the oldest sugar poster here, and old enough to be a grandfather of many of sugar members. I hope the name brings a smile to your face.

No rich schools would not get richer, poor children would have the ability to go to rich peoples schools. There were two students going to the academy the two Obama children are registered in. Stopping the voucher program in D.C., is sending them back to the failing D.C. public school system. The vouchers were less then the average cost/pupil in the public school system by the way.

Sounds way too good to be accurate.

That's really a complicated question when you think about it, considering how there's no straight definition for either of those terms. What we have in America isn't pure capitalism just like the system in France isn't 100% socialism. Most people IMO prefer something in between capitalism and socialism, even if they say they like one over the other.

Whether the article is misleading or not, it would seem to be a fairly typical reaction to an economic crisis. Capitalism had a crisis, so people think maybe socialism would be better. When socialism has a crisis (or everyone gets bored with it), people will want to go back to capitalism.

Vouchers are unfair! To teachers unions and to public school administrators.
IF vouchers were allowed, poor parents could send their kiddos to better schools.
Why not just try it?? It would benefit the poor. And it would force bad schools to improve...or close.

Grandpa my why do you think the voucher system came about in the first place? Because we allowed and are allowing our education system curriculum, infrastructure and supporting programs to become more and more inefficient by the year and this has been going on for decades. The voucher system only helps some because there is only so much extra room at a good school for other students they certainly can take the millions that are gonna be left in poor schools. There is simply no excuse IMO for what has happened to our education system.

??my why?? lol, that should be Grandpa why....

Why does Washington DC spend more per student then any other public school system in the U.S.($26,555/student), and still has what is universally recognised as an abysmal education system? ??My why?? (I won't laugh here, because there is nothing funny about it), that should be hypnoticmix why...

It is not the amount of money that is spent, it is how it is spent.

Here:
Fast Facts

Question:
How much money does the United States spend on public elementary and secondary schools?

Response:

School districts had total expenditures of approximately $499.1 billion in fiscal year 2005, including about $424.6 billion in current expenditures for public elementary and secondary education. Of the remaining expenditures, $53.5 billion was spent on capital outlay, $13.3 billion on interest payments on debt, and $7.7 billion on other programs (programs such as community services and adult education, which are not a part of public elementary and secondary education).

After adjustment for inflation, current expenditures per student in fall enrollment in public schools rose during the 1980s, remained stable during the first part of the 1990s, and rose again between 1993-94 and 2003-04. There was an increase of 37 percent from 1980-81 to 1990-91; an increase of less than 1 percent from 1990-91 to 1994-95 (which resulted from small decreases at the beginning of this period, followed by small increases after 1992-93); and an increase of 23 percent from 1994-95 to 2004-05. In 2004-05, current expenditures per student in fall enrollment were $8,701 in unadjusted dollars.

SOURCE: U.S. Department of Education, National Center for Education Statistics. (2008). Digest of Education Statistics, 2007 (NCES 2008-022), Chapter 2.

Current expenditure per pupil in fall enrollment in public elementary and secondary schools: Selected years, 1961-62 through 2004-05
School Year Current expenditures in unadjusted dollars
Current expenditures in constant 2006-07 dollars1

current constant
1961-62 $393 $2,670
1970-71 842 4,328
1980-81 2,307 5,438
1985-86 3,479 6,527
1990-91 4,902 7,472
1995-96 5,689 7,517
1996-97 5,923 7,609
1997-98 6,189 7,811
1998-99 6,508 8,074
1999-2000 6,912 8,335
2000-01 7,380 8,604
2001-02 7,727 8,853
2002-03 8,044 9,017
2003-04 8,310 9,116
2004-05 8,701 9,266

1Constant dollars based on the Consumer Price Index, prepared by the Bureau of Labor Statistics, U.S. Department of Labor, adjusted to a school-year basis.

NOTE: Beginning in 1980-81, state administration expenditures are excluded from "current" expenditures. Current expenditures include instruction, student support services, food services and enterprise operations. Beginning in 1988-89, extensive changes were made in the data collection procedures. Some data have been revised from previously published figures.

SOURCE: U.S. Department of Education, National Center for Education Statistics. (2008). Digest of Education Statistics, 2007 (NCES 2008-022), Table 171.

Related Tables and Figures: (Listed by Release Date)

2008, Digest of Education Statistics 2007, Table 167. Total expenditures for public elementary and secondary education, by function and state or jurisdiction: 2004–05

2008, Digest of Education Statistics 2007, Table 169. Total expenditures for public elementary and secondary education, by function and subfunction: Selected years, 1990–91 through 2004–05

2008, Digest of Education Statistics 2007, Table 172. Total and current expenditures per pupil in fall enrollment in public elementary and secondary education, by function and state or jurisdiction: 2004–05

2008, Digest of Education Statistics 2007, Table 174. Current expenditure per pupil in fall enrollment in public elementary and secondary schools, by state or jurisdiction: Selected years, 1969–70 through 2004–05

2008, The Condition of Education 2008: Changes in Sources of Public School Revenue

2008, The Condition of Education 2008: Public Elementary and Secondary Expenditures by District Poverty

2008, The Condition of Education 2008: Variations in Instruction Expenditures per Student

2004, The Condition of Education 2004: Public Elementary and Secondary Expenditures by District Location

Other Resources: (Listed by Release Date)

2008, State Fiscal Reports - These reports contain state totals of revenues and expenditures. This includes revenues by source and expenditures by function and object, including current expenditures per pupil and instructional expenditures.

2007, Comparative Indicators of Education in the United States and Other G-8 Countries: 2006

2007, Projections of Education Statistics to 2016

2007, Revenues and Expenditures by Public School Districts: School Year 2004-05

2007, Revenues and Expenditures for Public Elementary and Secondary Education: School Year 2004-05 (Fiscal Year 2005)

2007, Status of Education in Rural America

2004, Federal Support for Education: Fiscal Years 1980 to 2003

So, if dollars are the answer shouldn't we have seen a constant improvement in student performance from at least 1963 forward?

Since we spent 3 1/2 times more per student in school year 2004-2005 then we did in school year 1961-62, we should see the students performing 3 1/2 times better in 2005, then in 1962. They are not, so the amount of money spent is clearly not the answer.

As an aside the average D.C. school voucher was $6,000, less then 1/4 what the D.C. failed public school was spending per student.

So let see Sidwell acadamy, you child a classmate of the obama girls, or the D.C. public school system? I know tough choice there.

"Because we allowed and are allowing our education system curriculum, infrastructure and supporting programs to become more and more inefficient by the year and this has been going on for decades"

This has been accomplished by our government, and yet we want to let that same government run our health care system??

Grandpa as a resident of DC I agree with you. Honestly, $25K PER KID and we need MORE MONEY?

No, actually, the DC governemnt just needs to stop paying dead teachers. And maybe even not grant teachers tenure after teaching for 1 whole entire year.

Hypno I agree we don't all start on an even playing field. No question about that. Some people are born on 3rd base.

What we have right now is a hybrid of capitalism and socialism. It's an imperfect beast, but, better than both extremes.

Well thanks for the cost sheet but I'm not talking about cost I'm talking about providing an excellent education system period. To some extent this issue is about money but for the most part it's simply about execution, curriculum and community support. We need to look at education holistically and stop just throwing money at it.

Poor & incomplete education is a huge reason for having a socialistic strain on our resources. If we can't understand that investing in it smartly will not only pay off fiscally but insure a brighter future for all than we're lost.

I think many non-europeans actually confuse the term "socialism" with what the european system actually is (partly). It's never pure socialism (it's much more capitalist than it is socialist) and I actually think that the system is (right now) superior in terms of letting people fall back into a safety net.
I'm a true liberal though, so I would support a truly free market in Europe but it's just not a priority for people.

hypnotic, I was responding to your statement: "We've stood by for decades and allowed our education system to crumble around us and as a result our future (our children) to fall through the cracks ill prepared for college and real life."

I was pointing out that the "crumble" you were talking about has more to do with how the money is allocated, rather then the amount allocated itself. I tutor math in the local elementary school. The way they teach math is a crime in my estimate. The kids are more taking a survey of math rather then learning the fundamentals. Even the teachers have a problem with the curriculum.

Go back to the way school was taught 50 years ago, when the American education system actually educated. Standards were set, and discipline was imposed, and teachers were respected.

Hmmm. Not everything was so sunny in U.S. education 50 years ago:

"The Gilbert Research Survey, which usually polls student opinions, turned to a sample of 900 teachers for their opinions about teenagers. The number one complaint was lack of courtesy and respect for their elders. Other peeves of teachers included carelessness, poor grammar, and incessant talking. The teachers blamed poor parental supervision... the dropout rate in 1959 was almost 50% of all those who had entered the first grade, and 21% of those who had reached the tenth grade!...Questions of antisocial and delinquent behavior and the weak holding power of the schools (dropouts) seemed to receive prominent attention."

The American Association for the Advancement of Science noted in 1998: "The U.S. has been trying to overhaul science education since the Russians launched Sputnik in the 1950s, but progress has been slow."

"The U.S. has been trying to overhaul science education since the Russians launched Sputnik in the 1950s, but progress has been slow."

So, the government has been trying to overhaul education, and have essentially failed to do so, and yet we think they'll do a better job with education?!?

huh?

Steph, in 1959, there was good money to be made in the trades and factories. The salaries were fairly comparable to that of the college graduate at that time. The advantage for the college graduate was he/she got to work indoors out of the inclement weather, and could keep their hands clean.

Those 900 teachers were polled ...exactly when? In 1959 it was unheard of to physically assault a teacher. In 1959, you had to learn and name all the parts of speech, all the kinds of punctuation. In ancient Rome, adults were complaining about the lack of respect for the younger generation.

The teachers were polled in 1959. In wasn't 'unheard' of to physically assault a teacher. Teachers try to teach students the parts of speech today, it doesn't mean the students learn. The 'advantage' for the college graduate extended beyond clean hands...

Unsupported, lyric anecdotes about education in the past are meaningless responses to the kind of concerns Hypno raises.

What we need is a healthy dose of both: capitalism and socialism.