release the idiot, let him get his 15 minutes from his people and live shoeless.

I don't see a reason to keep him locked up. They should just take him out back and stone him like they did all the other protestors...

JK

I thought they'd already released him?

No he's in jail for insulting Iraqi government or something like that...

It looks like we got our answer as to whether this was one random person or the voice of a majority or at least many.

I think the Iraqi people are p!ssed personally, they did meet the US as liberators, but they feel we have let them down (which our strategy has, no question about it I think) and they things are looking like they won't improve soon. I think their frustrations are justified (even if the act was not). What is the point of removing Saddam if nothing gets better and their families and lives are in chaos? People were ready to make sacrifices to be rid of him, but the sacrifice is wearing thin and people need to see progress, better progress then hundreds being killed everyday. The cheered while bombs lit up Baghdad and voted despite threats and bombs, and cheered for Bush in his visits the first 5yrs, but now he seems giddy to be walking away leaving nothing substantial behind him as far as the people living there are concerned.

And someone in another thread mentioned that they can't feel this way because so far the people have been really good and grateful where the soldiers are concerned - I think there is a difference between Bush and the policies and the soldiers on the ground. The might hate the idiotic way we handled this war, while appreciating the people on the ground stuck in the same bad decisions as they are.

lol "go out" Yes, let's get out. I don't give a sh*t about Iraq anymore, they're so ungrateful, and Bush/America is their scapegoat. It's just sad for the people who do appreciate what we've done for them. Do they really think they'd be better off without us? And save your rants, I'm really not interested.

It's almost scary that Blagojevich still have gubernatorial (right word?) power... seems to me if you are under investigation or indictment, you should have to turn your power over to someone else.

"And save your rants, I'm really not interested."

Uh, thanks for the disclaimer?

I still want to know what Blago's hair is gonna do once the shizz goes down on this scandal. That hair is not meant to be kept behind bars.

Em you can't restrain that kind of fabulousness!

em, I've just found in the political blogs that anytime I say what I actually think I get a hailstorm of "you're completely wrong, it's THIS way." And I'm tired of the debates, they're very circular. Everyone's entitled to their opinion and I don't think mine should be attacked, that's all.

"It was the least thing for an Iraqi to do to Bush, the tyrant criminal who has killed two million people in Iraq and Afghanistan," said Dulaimi.

2 million? Anyone know if this statistic is accurate? Just curious.

Qell they were better off without us, at least women were. They could drive, go to school, and own their own business, since Saddam was a secularist Sunni. But I'm with them. Get out and get out now. Let the Sunnis, Kurds, and Shiites determine their own fates now.

You really can't hold back the hair. It needs its own reality show or something, bluesarahlou. Or a soap opera. "The Hairs of our Lives", maybe?

I agree with you, krae, everyone is entitled to his/her opinion. Nothing wrong with that.

Well*

I think ole Blago is a bit delusional...he can't possibly think this will turn out well for him, can he?

As for the journalist, come on he threw his shoes at the President. Way to make a mature political statement.

The U.S. government doesn't count civilian deaths.
The site justforeignpolicy.org tries to keep track - as does antiwar.com iraqbodycount.org. They quote a study from a prestigious British polling agency in September 2007, Opinion Research Business, which estimated 1.2 million Iraqis have been killed violently since the US invasion. IF they're close to right, two million for Iraq and Afghanistan seems possible.

People will challenge the numbers arguing what violent means, how directly an American bullet or bomb is responsible for each death, do you count people who died as a result of poor care for their wounds...

Thanks for the info steph... of course, 'estimated 1.2 million Iraqis have been killed violently since the US invasion'. That brings a lot of questions.

steph made a good point... there is a big definition of what consitutes a violent death. And the issue of directly related or care related. Here is my question though. How many of those reported deaths are the direct result of a US action (bombing, shooting, etc) or are insurgent actions in that number as well? Something to think about.

I don't think we'll ever know for sure how many civilian deaths there have been.

That Ill. Gov situation gets crazier by the day! But I agree, that man has amazing hair! His and Sanjayas could be like a superhair duo!

But we should ask how many civilian deaths there were. It matters.

LOL Haus...Sanjaya and him would make a great team for a hair salon!

I agree Stephley, especially when I know a lot of people that say the good of the Iraq war is that it kept the violence 'over there' instead of on U.S. soil. Having 2 million civilians die so another American doesn't (at least by their rationale) seems like an extremely high price to pay, not to mention all the U.S. troops that have died or have been seriously wounded.

it's tough i think being a citizen of a country that has a dictatorship. One one hand you want the president to be gone but on the other hand if he's removed who will take his place, how will they take his place and no matter how much you want him removed most people don't want a war, because wars never leave much but a lot of damage and deaths. i think on one hand the Iraqis are grateful but on the other hand they are also angry a the way their lives have changed too. it's not the perfect life they imagined.

The problem with Iraq is that you have 3 different groups and sectors that have fundamental differences in beliefs and to a point just don't like each other. The Sunnis believe in one way, the Shiites, another, and the Kurds down the middle. If you're going to remove Saddam in power, you're left with who will be in power. Will it be the Sunnis again, as it was under Saddam or the Shiites. Or what about the Kurds, who were almost killed off by Saddam and other Sunnis.

It's a problem that's going to continue to plague Iraq until those three groups can be a universal decision on how to establish a real democracy in Iraq where it's beneficially for all three groups, and unfortunately, that's not going to happen anytime soon.

Correction

those three groups can make* a universal decision....where it's beneficial for all three groups*

completely agree myst, a lot of people don't seem to get how tribalism plays such a big deal in a lot of countries and feeds into the conflicts. You might remove Saddam but you don't remove the dislike or hatred between the various tribes.

Who throws a shoe?!

That really hurt! I'm gonna have a lump there, you idiot! Who throws a shoe? Honestly! You fight like a woman!

He really missed a comedic opportunity there, eh?

I'm not saying theres no validity in wanting to KNOW how many civilian deaths there were but the fact is that we will never know, its just not realistic, and there are PLENTY of people who like to toss around an inflated number to make the US look bad and that does more damage.

There is no nobility in making up a statistic just because its something we'd like to know.

"There is no nobility in making up a statistic just because its something we'd like to know."
But no one's doing that here.
I offered three sites, and quoted a specific pollster - the curious could go to any of those sites, where they very carefully explain how they came up with their numbers. I don't personally know anyone, or of anyone, who enjoys making the U.S. look bad.

Man, that would've been FUNNY if he had Jude!

Are these civilian deaths by troops or do you mean the suicide bombers that cause thousands?

The numbers are explained as carefully as the groups can, if you care to look them up.

forgive me stephley, im at work and in this thread when i should not be )so i cant read it thoroughly, but all i see is Due to US led invasion, I cannot find where and how they analyze the statistics.

http://www.iraqbodycount.org/analysis/numbers/2007/

Same problem, but this links to a page on one site that analyses 2007 deaths in Iraq. It goes fairly in depth, discussing the death tolls in different cities, deaths from car bombs, from air strikes, directly attributable to U.S. forces, the deaths of bystander non-combatants and bodies found in Baghdad. You would have to have the time to click on the various links.

"I don't give a sh*t about Iraq anymore, they're so ungrateful, and Bush/America is their scapegoat. It's just sad for the people who do appreciate what we've done for them. Do they really think they'd be better off without us?"

....seriously?

Why don't you look up the facts about the Iraq-Kuwait war before you rant and rave about how much appreciation they owe you and the Bush family, especially the great fliers in the Shia provinces.

I know of plenty of people who enjoy making the US look bad, Media Matters, HuffPo, Daily Kos... MoveOn... and those are just the organized ones.

Well that guy who threw the shoe should thank Bush, if he would have thrown the shoe at Saddam he'd already have been dead for a day.

Soooo... thats 1 guy down...

" know of plenty of people who enjoy making the US look bad, Media Matters, HuffPo, Daily Kos... MoveOn... and those are just the organized ones."

You actually can not support your claim that any of these groups 'enjoy making the US look bad'.
You cited groups that disagree with your political point of view and work to change what they see as problems with the direction in which the country is moving. People who don't love their country are content to let it rot, people who care work to correct its problems. Patriots can disagree on what those problems are without being unpatriotic.

People who's opinions differ from your own opinions aren't necessarily unpatriotic. They just see things differently. That's the beauty of having an opinion.

My friend has one side of his family that has completely different political ideals. It doesn't mean they don't get together and celebrate their country and their patriotism equally.

Apparently the Iraqi-American population in Dearborn, Michigan has sent a letter apologizing profusely for the reporters actions and thanking President Bush for his actions.

"President George W. Bush:

On behalf of the Iraqi Community in Dearborn Michigan we offer our sincere apologies for the unfortunate incident that took place at the press conference with the Iraqi Prime Minister Mr. Almaliki in Baghdad , Iraq on Sunday December 14, 2008. This incident did not transpire from the will of the Iraqi people rather from the old Ba’athist regime who still wish to have the Iraqi people to suffer. We ask the Iraqi Government to take the harshest measures to punish this individual.

Also at the same time we as a community in the USA want to offer our sincere thanks and gratitude specially at your last days in office for the greatest gift you have given the Iraqi people by removing the tyrant Sadaam and his Ba’athist Regime for all the atrocities they have committed to the Iraqi people from mass graves, regional illegitimate wars which took more than three million Iraqi lives, and random killings and terror we thank you for elevating that pain and suffering.

Sincerely,

The Iraqi Community in Dearborn, Michigan."

.....I think my favorite thing about the Middle East is how can a group of people identified in very limited terms be so insanely different!

Quoting Nya: "completely agree myst, a lot of people don't seem to get how tribalism plays such a big deal in a lot of countries and feeds into the conflicts. You might remove Saddam but you don't remove the dislike or hatred between the various tribes."

Absolutely. Understanding the social, political and cultural makeup of a country shouldn't be underestimated. I have said before that sometimes countries like this do NOT make good democracies for that very reason - its not about equality. They don't WANT equality. It sounds good "on paper", but the reality is you are dealing with a very different social structure than a Western Democracy.

Unfortunately having one leader with too much power gets you into that sort of "royalty" lottery of having a crappy leader or excellent one - the former being more likely given the lure and corrupting influence of power.

To Jude:

The shoe being thrown has political significance in a Middle Eastern/Muslim country...it is a potent and understood symbol of disrespect, as the sole of the food and shoes are seen as "dirty and unclean". It was quite an insult that was being thrown at Bush in the context of where it happened. Thus..the shoe.

I picked those particular groups out precisely because of their militant hatred. There are plenty of people with whom I disagree that I don't think hate this country (notice how I didn't say the DNC?) however the groups I chose I chose because they specifically seek to destroy what this country was founded on and because 98% of the time they are trashing this country and its inhabitants. THAT is NOT patriotic. That is NOT love anymore than its love when someone's boyfriend beats them.

You can't say you love something but in the next breath prattle off all the things that are wrong with it and want to change everything.

It just doesn't make any sense.

And thats fine, I don't know why people get so sensitive about it. Its not like its a sin to not love the place you are.

Yeah, I know, Shadow. It just seemed like the obvious bad joke to make

Haus, I'm sorry, Honey, but we aren't living in a perfect union. A perfect union does not exist. It was the wish of our fore fathers that we constantly strive to make a more perfect union. Acknowledging that changes can and should be made hardly makes one unpatriotic.

Ah. Hehe.

zeze, I've worked in journalism for the past five years and interviewed many many many military men and women and ALL of them say the Iraqi people are grateful and appreciative of what we've done for them. They have pictures of smiling Iraqis, waving American flags. You can believe whatever garbage you want to, but we have helped them immensely and some of them are smart enough to appreciate it, unlike these shoe-lovers.

Wait...am I missing something with the whole "Iraqi people should be more grateful" thing? I didn't realize Iraq asked the US to invade, and by any factual accounts we have left the country in a worse condition than it was in when we got there. Also, for all you hawks out there, we should have sent in MORE troops when we decided to invade if we had wanted to do it effectively.

Krae- yet when they poll the Iraqis, this is a summary of the results:

"The U.S. has long maintained its involvement there is with the support of the Iraqi people, but in 2005 when asked directly, 82–87% of the Iraqi populace was opposed to U.S. occupation and wanted U.S. troops to leave. 47% of Iraqis supported attacking U.S. troops.[360] Another poll conducted on September 27, 2006, found that seven out of ten Iraqis want U.S.-led forces to withdraw from Iraq within one year. Overall, 78% of those polled said they believed that the presence of U.S. forces is "provoking more conflict than it's preventing." 53% of those polled believed the Iraqi government would be strengthened if U.S. forces left Iraq (versus 23% who believed it would be weakened), and 71% wanted this to happen in 1 year or less. All of these positions were more prevalent amongst Sunni and Shia respondents than among Kurds. 61% of respondents said that they approve of attacks on U.S.-led forces, while 94% still had an unfavorable opinion of al-Qaeda.[361]

A March 7, 2007 survey of more than 2,000 Iraqis found that 78% of the population opposed the presence of Coalition forces in Iraq, that 69% believed the presence of U.S. forces is making things worse, and that 51% of the population considered attacks on coalition forces acceptable, up from 17% in 2004 and 35% in 2006. In addition:[362]

* 64% described their family's economic situation as being somewhat or very bad, up from 30% in 2005.
* 88% described the availability of electricity as being either somewhat or very bad, up from 65% in 2004.
* 69% described the availability of clean water as somewhat or very bad, up from 48% in 2004.
* 88% described the availability of fuel for cooking and driving as being somewhat or very bad.
* 58% described reconstruction efforts in the area in which they live as either somewhat or very ineffective, and 9% described them as being totally nonexistent."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_war

And yes, it's from wikipedia, but when you go to the page, you can click on the original source of the information. I don't think many people use wikipedia, because I have to explain this every time I post something from there!

It just absolutely blows my mind that any American can still pretend that our presence in Iraq was justified and helpful. There are 4.6 million Iraqi refugees created from the war, many are now without electricity or running water, the whole situation is a mess.

No matter what YOU think of them Haus, it is only your POV that says those groups "enjoy making the U.S. look bad".
I could say that people like George Bush enjoy making the U.S. look bad because from my point of view, that's the only explanation for the stupid, hateful sh*t he has done in our names around the world.

Snowbunny, you're fabulous.

I thought a big part of having comments was so that people could express their point of view. I guess I am confused.