hmm, interesting, I had no idea the IUD was considered abortion too...

I am wonder, if anyone know (I'm ignorant on the subject) but what embryos does the church have a problem with being used for stem cell research? Like where else do embryos come from if not from the places the named as ok? (are aborted fetuses the issue, and if they are I don't think there is a danger in women having abortions for the sake of research, so what would it matter if they were used to save lives, it is not like it would stop the abortion or alter anything). Again, i don't know much about this, so please share!

I wouldn't say 'ignore' everything they have to say but I would say to remember that the Church has a long history and its direction on some of these matters has varied in the past.

UUmm that's crazy. I just learned how the morning after pill is not an abortion pill... it prevents implantation. I just want to know if the Catholic Church's ever plans on judging itself the way it does everything else. I thought on God could judge people.. actions etc..hmm
Guess when God set the church up, he ignored the corruptibility of humans.

only God***.... not on God

http://www.usccb.org/comm/Dignitaspersonae/Dignitas_Personae.pdf

Here is the link to the actual document. I'm not at all surprised, the Catholic Church sees the birth control pill as abortion so of course they would say the morning after pill is. (though most scientists would not classify either BCP or the morning after pill as such). But again, its kind of a moot point whether these pharmaceutical birth control methods are abortion or not - all forms of barrier birth control, surgical methods to prevent contraception such as tubal ligation and vasectomies, fertility treatments such as IVF and artificial insemination, as well as pills are anti-life and equally as wrong as abortion in the Vatican's eyes. This is why I don't understand how people can consider themselves Catholic and be ok with all of this things above (which most don't think is as bad as abortion).

It's one of many potentially useful perspectives to consider. But it's not the only or the defining perspective, and shouldn't be taken as such.

zeze, the Church is ok with adult stem cell use or the use of stem cells from umbilical cord blood of a baby that died after or during birth of 'natural' causes.

I posted a link to the actual document, but it got flagged, so it will take a few minutes to show up. It talks about the IVF and stem cell stuff at length.

I didn't know they thought that about the IUD either.

As for what should people do..well it depends on the person! I'm not paying any mind to it but other people may. Its very difficult not to when your a catholic and its the Vatican, but at the end of the day I have my own thoughts about certain things.

well if you arent a catholic than why care what they mandate

I know a friend of mine who is getting In Vitro right now, and she has been a devout catholic her entire life, she has had to go through alot of criticism from her church and while she understands their stance, she believes that any child is a miracle and a gift from God, even through in vitro.

the Church states that life begins at conception so the morning-after pill preventing implantation is, essentially, abortion because a life has been formed and is not able to live. and zeze- i think aborted fetuses is one issue, as is the use of leftover embryos from IVF treatment as the Church is against both of those practices. if a fetus dies of natural causes and the parents choose to donate it for scientific research, I don't think that would be seen as any different from a person choosing for their body to be donated to science after their death.

"I wouldn't say 'ignore' everything they have to say but I would say to remember that the Church has a long history and its direction on some of these matters has varied in the past."

I'm curious steph - in what matters has the Church changed direction?

I'm curious steph - in what matters has the Church changed direction?

Galileo and the whole Earth revolves around the sun thing, took them 300 years, but the Church finally said he didn't go to hell.

I would also like to add the the dignity of human life idea extends to assisted suicides, the practice of torture (including the whole Gitmo thing), the death penalty, slavery, oppression, etc.

I just want to be clear that this issue is not soley about bioethics and the women's choice movement. It is about much, much more.

elizabeth, they say the same thing ( i.e. its abortion) about the birth control pill btw.

Thanks for the info, Elizabeth and mydiadem. I guess i dont see the difference if its natural or not, aborted babies are dead anyway, it is not like the church is encouraging abortion. It seems like not using a good heart from someone who commits suicide...the heart is still good, why not?

diadem-

Good example, but steph wrote "SOME of these matters," indicating that she was thinking about the bioethics issue.

To my knowledge, they have been pretty steadfast in the positions discussed in the article. If there is a gap in my knowledge, I would like to know about it as a practising Catholic.

I agree kranky, they have been completely steadfast on their positions around bioethics. They continue to maintain that all forms of birth control that prevent conception (pills, tubal ligation, vasectomies, condoms, IUDs) are wrong and as wrong as abortion, IVF, artificial insemination, freezing your eggs, and stem cell research (oh, and some bishops would put voting for Obama in this category). Catholics just pick and choose which of these teachings they want to adhere to and mandate on others through legislation.

Ugh, I wish they would post my earlier post! I said it better there I think.

dont worry mydia you did good!

good luck with your friend CG!

Kranky, there has been wiggle room on abortion for centuries. The hardline 'life begins at conception' stance is relatively new. We've talked about it in past threads (not recent- last summer?).

Oh yes diadem, I would agree that Catholics have not and are not steadfast on living the bioethics issues, but I'm pretty sure the church has.

If not, then maybe steph will share some insights with me.

Really, steph? I had no idea about wiggle room for abortions. Can you post some links?

Lovely group photo...I wonder if He's got on his Red Prada Pumps...

How is this news? I don't see how this document differs from any of the material in (Catholic) high school religion. I guess the Vatican felt a need to clarify because the world is not getting it (or does not care)?

Also, I agree the church has hardly had wiggle room when it comes to the topic of life and I love them for it

You can google abortion, Catholic Church history.

I dunno know why the Church decided to release this particular document now, Anna. Maybe it has something to do with American politicians who are Catholic incorrectly interpreting the Catholic doctrine on these issues (notably, Biden and Pelosi)? Obama's stance on all of the above?

But, I can't imagine the Vatican producing such a document solely because of something happening in American politics.

Well, I don't think it's that the world doesn't "get it" or "doesn't care", but since not everyone in the world is Catholic, then it could just fall into the category of "doesn't apply".

kranky I would think they have been working on this for a while and it has no connection to the US elections. This country doesn't register too much on the Vatican's radar IMO.

I did steph, thanks.

It appears that there are a number of non-Catholic sites that support what you stated: that the Catholic Church has wavered on the topic of abortion (for those following along, they are at religious tolerance.org - I am not posting links because I do not want my comment flagged. Feel free to PM me if you want specific links.)

I found a Catholic site that discusses the idea that the Church ahs waivered and it argues that it has not, and I think it gives a pretty convincing argument (it's at catholicculture.org). Three arguments: the difference between moral law and canonical law (or punishment), dissenting individuals in the Church who did not speak for the church at the time, and the debate surrounding when a soul becomes animated - which went on for awhile, but never that abortion was OK.

At the end of the day, thanks for bringing this up steph. I feel like I am learning something today.

diadem -

I agree that they have probably been working on the document for awhile. I don't agree that our nation isn't on the Vatican's radar (hello sex scandals and their constanct criticism of Gitmo). But I think we both agree that the Vatican is not generally reactionary.

yeah but sex scandals happened all over the world, not just in the US. What I meant is that the Vatican is very much Europe centric in a lot of its direct actions.

Extremely gracious Kranky, thank-you.

Hey thanks steph!

Don't forget heartfelt.

Maybe so diadem. I guess I am still a little aflutter that ol 'Bene made it to the US (and was so close to my place!), that I might have a warped idea about the importance of America to the Vatican.

Oh wow, I didn't realize my Mirena IUD constituted abortion . And does the turkey baster method, that I was planning on using, count as bad? I mean its not invitro, but is isn't sex either?

Is the baster made of natural tree bark?

I guess I could use natural tree bark if it were sanded well...

I just wanted to apologize for my original comment, I went to Catholic high school (I was never raised Catholic) and it gave me a very horrible impression of the Catholic church. I realize this is not representative of all Catholics but having a teacher say not raising your child catholic is the same as letting your child run in the street as a car is coming, is just a horrible thing. I personally disagree with a lot of the doctrines of the Catholic Church and feel the church is often hypocritical.

Then go in peace my child...

Yeah no turkey baster for you. Sorry

I was raised catholic, went to 16 years of catholic school, and now a crap load about the Bible and Church doctrine. I honestly can't with a good conscience even pretend to be Catholic anymore when I disagree so much with so much of their doctrines and dogma. Its sad really.

The thing is Mydia, there is a liberal wing and conservative wing of the Church - and things do change. I was at a religion class with my daughter the other night, and was pretty amazed at the presentation of the 10 Commandments - talk about wiggle room. A couple of feminist nuns convinced me some time ago that it's our Church too and to be careful of letting Church politics mess with your basic faith.

Don't do this, don't do that or you will die and burn in hell. I'm really glad that my parents aren't religious.

"I guess I could use natural tree bark if it were sanded well..."

baaaah. That just gave me a really bad mental picture...

"I guess I could use natural tree bark if it were sanded well..."

baaaah. That just gave me a really bad mental picture...

How is specifying that children must be born to married parents considered bioethics? I don't understand how the church can claim to be so pro-life, yet oppose research on stem cells? They are discovering new medical uses everyday for stem cells.

I'm not trying to disparage anyone's beliefs, but I don't think the Vatican's opinion is extremely relevant right now when it comes to debates in bioethics. Considering the morning after pill, and the IUD as forms of abortion is extreme, and as Steph pointed out, many American Catholics reject these beliefs on a personal level now. And banning the use of in vitro? That's just cold. It seems less like they care about people, or life, and more like they just care about following some pedagogical rules that have little to no biblical basis.

That photo alone gives me the creeps. This whole Church just seems so wrong.

I'm not religious and have never been and I do not agree with all medical advancements that are going on but I would never let a bunch of old guys tell me how to live my life. If you believe in God isn't he supposed to be the one to judge you?

This church is still opposing condoms (and spreading lies about them) in countries where AIDS is very widespread.

I say take charge of you own life and you own thoughts on right and wrong, you don't need a church to decide that for you.

Sarana, I think having a spiritual community is an okay thing-churches tend to go wrong when people assign roles in the community that include 'you're the one who decides everything for the rest of us' and 'I'll shut up and do as I'm told'.

[I'm not religious and have never been and I do not agree with all medical advancements that are going on but I would never let a bunch of old guys tell me how to live my life. If you believe in God isn't he supposed to be the one to judge you?]

Indeed, that is what the bible teaches. "Let He Who Is Without Sin Cast The First Stone". No one is sinless. Live your life as you believe but don't judge those whose lifestyles oppose yours and do not harm anyone's but their own.

[This church is still opposing condoms (and spreading lies about them) in countries where AIDS is very widespread.

I say take charge of you own life and you own thoughts on right and wrong, you don't need a church to decide that for you.]

I am no longer Catholic due to its doctrines which are basically just the human interpretation of select members of the Vatican.

Ok.. let me tell you what I have learned being a non denom Christian who married a catholic whose mom was raised in Spain by nuns. Cause I was shocked..shocked at the enormity of it!!

The church is against ALL forms of birth control from withdrawal to rhythm to pills to sterilization.

All forms of birth control is a sin..some bigger then others (mortally sinful, others say venially) because the sole purpose of sex is procreation.

The "purpose" of marriage is procreation.

It is a SIN for a husband and wife to have sex unless for the SOLE purpose of procreation..if you do anything to prevent or interfere with the possibility of a child being the result of the sexual act.. it is a SIN!

Think of all the sinning you have done ladies.. even with your hubby!!

Meh, I have a hard time listening to an organization which once sold get-out-of-hell passes for cash.

"I dunno know why the Church decided to release this particular document now, Anna. Maybe it has something to do with American politicians who are Catholic incorrectly interpreting the Catholic doctrine on these issues (notably, Biden and Pelosi)?"

I don't know about Pelosi..but what I liked about Biden was that he conceded that he is willing to believe along with his faith that life begins at conception. But that is a religious belief not a scientific accepted fact so therefore it is not his entitlement to use his politician position to push his personal religious based belief on others. He was hired to represent all Americans..not just those who agree with him religiously. He believes in the separation of church and state.

If only they all had that attitude.