It's so sad to see that child holding up that sign.

It really is sad. Who's to say that child won't end up being gay?

yes organic thats exactly what I was thinking...

LOL organic:)

Booooo to the b*tches who voted yes on Prop 8.

Yea I said and I'm not taking it back.

Hurray that it passed!

I see your testing me.

It may not be a tsunami yet, but the tide is turning in favor of gay marriage.

I hope every person who voted for Prop 8 stubs their toe. Hard.

Yep Janneth, people who are somehow affected by having a married gay couple in the same state with them should bask in the glow of their exclusive connubial heterosexuality now!

oh no? The horror! What will people do...how will they possibly live their life? Gay people getting married around them...man!

"I see your testing me."

Yes, and you passed!

I just think it's funny that this country has become "all about what the people want (voting), unless your side doesn't win. Then it's off to the courts."

That poor child ... she probably doesn't even understand what she's picketing for ... she's just doing what her parents are telling her to.

I think people that have "quite a problem with the gays" should stop hiding behind their belief that the "people should decide."

I love how so many people are saying, "oh that poor child" but when there was a child holding a sign that said, "jesus had two daddies, why can't I" a lot of you said that was cute. why the double standard?

Because one is bigoted and one is not.

wrong

I never saw that hainan..but if I did I would've been against it.

I think that picture is sad not because they are voting against gay rights BUT because that little girl only looks about 4-5 y/o. She obviously have no idea what it is she's "saying" with that sign. Yet the parents think its okay to have her hold a sign like that up.

Its ridiculous.

Next time ask why it is we said what we said. It may surprise you to know you dont know it all.

I don't particularly like children being used by their parents to promote their beliefs, especially something as polarizing as gay marriage.

I don't think this should have even been on the ballot (aka I do not believe it is "up to the people" to decide).

The point of "separation between church and state" is yes, you get to hold your religious beliefs, but your religious beliefs should NOT impact the lives of others. That means that the Bible (or any other religious doctrine) does not determine how everybody must live.

Besides, gay marriage is legal in Canada and I think we're all doing okay up here

Yeah, like, I would have been pissed if my parents had me hold up a sign supporting the legalization of interracial marriage. That shit's polarizing.

Well if I grew up to be against interracial marriage I'd be pissed too!

I just mean kids should be allowed to be kids. Not a messenger for their parents.

I agree blue, although I do think there is a difference between a child holding a banner supporting his/her parent's right for marriage and a child holding up a banner trying to keep other people from marrying. I think there's a big difference.

I agree Harmony. There is a big difference!

I dunno...maybe I just don't like the messages when I don't agree with them.

I've been around lots of kids and it's so nice that they can just BE KIDS. They've got so many years to be concerned about how crappy life is sometimes and how bigoted and nasty people can be. Why drag them into it?

Guys, not to sound like Pollyanna but even if this doesn't work I think it's a question of when, not if, based on the past SCOTUS decisions. I think things actually are changing more quickly than anyone would have expected 20 years ago, and some have suggested that even when states put these measure on the ballot, it brings attention to the issue. This of all the anti-prop 8 protests. And it brings about intelligent conversation. I mean, I don't have any gay friends or family members, and I didn't think much about this issue before the Prop 8 debate.

Anyway, just trying to send some positive vibes, now that we've had a little distance from Nov. 4!

I agree snowbunny. This was a battle that was lost...not the war.

"Next time ask why it is we said what we said. It may surprise you to know you don't know it all."
hmmm momma tikita- i think the comments before and after yours pretty much surmises exactly what I thought when I read the comments about this. I did know after all. I think maybe you are a lone ranger in your thoughts compared to others on this thread. Your opinion I like. And I agree with. I don't think kids should be even out there protesting. But I have seen a lot of comments on other threads by the people that were commenting on this one and there is a huge double standard.

There is a difference between holding up a sign asking for your own parents to be able to married when you are 5, and holding up a sign asking for someone else's parents NOT to be married when you're 5. I'm not a fan of kids protesting in general because I tend not to think they know what is going on, and it just seems manipulative. But I would think the 5 year old daughter of a gay couple is directly impacted by the ban on marriages, so it doesn't bother me as much.

Of course, the whole premise of fighting against gay marriages is fighting against someone else's rights when you aren't directly involved, so I guess maybe it does make sense for the pro-prop 8er to get their kid started young. Not like it matters if they understand or are impacted by what they are fighting against, because it's not like the adults do either.

I'm curious, how does a gay couple create a 5yr old?

UnDave, who said anything about creating children?

iAre you implying that the parent-child relationship between adoptive parents and children is somehow less than the relationship between bio parents and kids?

Yes. There is a connection between bio parents and the child that can never be replaced. Why do you think so many adoptive children spend so much time looking for their mom's? It's not because they weren't loved by their adoptive parents. As to this comment:
"But I would think the 5 year old daughter of a gay couple" Implies that the Gay couple created the daughter, which is why I posed the question.

>"But I would think the 5 year old daughter of a gay couple" Implies that the Gay couple created the daughter, which is why I posed the question.

One, a lesbian couple could "create" a daughter through in vitro.

Two, any gay couple can still have a daughter without having "created" her. An adopted child is just as much your child as one you squeeze out yourself.

I'm appalled you would suggest otherwise. Typical breeder arrogance.

A lesbian couple could not create a child. A woman could get pregnant through invitro, but it's not created by the two women. The child is created by a woman and some man's contribution.

Also, you can raise a child as your own, but the biological connection between a child and that child's parents is still stronger. You can deny that all you want, and insult me ("typical breeder arrogance"), but that doesn't change the facts. Instead of being appalled, maybe you should spend a little more time examining the truthfulness of the statement.

>Also, you can raise a child as your own, but the biological connection between a child and that child's parents is still stronger.

Stronger than what? Stronger than your biological connection? Sure. Stronger than your relationship? Stronger than your family connection? Absolutely not. The bond between adopted children and their parents is just as strong as that between bio kids and their parents.

You seem to have some grasp on the nuts and bolts of creating offspring, but you clearly don't know much about creating families.

Just in case I wasn't completely clear:

I think it's absolutely disgusting for you to imply that a gay couple (or any couple!) can't have a daughter just because their f*cking didn't produce it. Someone just mentioned a gay couple having a daughter, and you jump to, "How is that even possible?" You usually at least try to veil your bigotry and homophobia a little bit.

I have to agree with TrueSong here. It's ridiculous to suggest that parents and children bond because they're biologically related. The parent-child bond is about love and trust, not genetics.

Would you love your parents any less if you found out you were adopted? Or would you love your own child any less if you found out they were switched at birth, and not biologically related to you or your wife?

It confuses me that you think somebody who has sex and creates a child then splits is more of a 'parent' than somebody who steps up to raise and love a child that they didn't create.

"I think it's absolutely disgusting for you to imply that a gay couple (or any couple!) can't have a daughter just because their f*cking didn't produce it. Someone just mentioned a gay couple having a daughter, and you jump to, "How is that even possible?" You usually at least try to veil your bigotry and homophobia a little bit."

That's a great duck. You still haven't mentioned how it's possible, and yet you've become absolutely disgusted with me.

"But I would think the 5 year old daughter of a gay couple.." This isn't a possibility. How does a gay couple have a kid? The answer is they don't. It isn't homophobia or bigotry, it's a fact.

"It confuses me that you think somebody who has sex and creates a child then splits is more of a 'parent' than somebody who steps up to raise and love a child that they didn't create."

I never mentioned anything about "parenting". I asked "How does a gay couple create a 5yr old?"

"Would you love your parents any less if you found out you were adopted? Or would you love your own child any less if you found out they were switched at birth, and not biologically related to you or your wife?"

To answer the first question, I've witnessed that exact scenario, and yes the girl found herself loving her "new" father less, now that she knew he wasn't her "real" father. BTW, I've seen it more than once. In fact I've seen it enough times to see a pattern.

To answer your second question, no, I would love the child regardless, but I would still strive to find the child that was mine. You would to, and you won't understand that until you have children.

"But I would think the 5 year old daughter of a gay couple.." This isn't a possibility. How does a gay couple have a kid? The answer is they don't. It isn't homophobia or bigotry, it's a fact.

No ducking. A gay couple can have a daughter. It's called adoption. No, they can't create a fetus, but they can have a child. There's a difference.

And your terminology is off in your response about finding out about being adopted. The "real" father is the one who raised the child, not the guy who dumped his sperm.

I am also going to agree with True Song on this one.

I have to say, UnDave, that I take offense to the following:

True Song: Are you implying that the parent-child relationship between adoptive parents and children is somehow less than the relationship between bio parents and kids?

UnDave35: Yes. There is a connection between bio parents and the child that can never be replaced. Why do you think so many adoptive children spend so much time looking for their mom's? It's not because they weren't loved by their adoptive parents.

I agree that there can be a very special bond between biological parents and their children. But I do not for one second believe that that bond is superior to a bond that can be formed between others. I have a very special bond between me and my 2 adopted brothers and I don't consider that to be less than the one between my biological sisters.

I'll be sure to ask my parents next time we chat if they feel their bond with my brothers is less than my bond with them.

T.S. - They can adopt a kid, but they can't "have" a child that is biologically theirs, I agree to that. That doesn't mean the parents would love them less, it just means that the child will most likely want to know about the biological parents, to the extint they may even go looking for them. It's from kids to their biological parents, not the other way.

amydk - not saying you're parents love you less. Don't put words into my mouth.

So I gather from the direction of this discussion is that homosexual parents can't create a child. They can adopt, but they can't make a child.

UnDave, I'm a little confused as to what your ultimate point is supposed to be. Are you or are you not arguing that a biological parent-child relationship is stronger/better than an adopted parent-child relationship? Because, although your posts have been a little disjointed, that seems to be your point. And if it is, then I think it shows a serious confusion as to what a parent-child relationship is supposed to be.

And if your point is simply that a homosexual couple can't have a child between the two of them, then that's a pretty silly point. First of all, it's obvious. Second of all, it's completely irrelevant to whether or not they can be parents. Parenting isn't about biology, it's about love. I pray that you, as a parent, know that already.

Great posts, Michelin. I'm kind of lost on the direction this thread is taking too.

And for the record, I never used the word 'love', UnDave. I was using your word, 'bond'.

Seriously. What is the point? No one brought up anything about creating or having or parenting. People just referred to a 5 year old wanting her gay parents to be allowed to be married. Are you trying to say that 5 year old doesn't have parents? Or that the gay couple aren't her "real" parents? Honestly, this is so ridiculous. There are a bajillion families made up of gay parents and adopted kids or kids produced via in vitro or surrogates. You don't get to decide what the best way is to structure a family.

Mich I you.

Dave, I feel sad for you. Being biologically related isn't enough. I hope you don't count on DNA to form the bond between you and your children.

UnDave, you have successfully insulted the institution of adoption. Hooray!