I was flipping through my Official Voter Information Guide the other night and started reading about California's Proposition 4, which involves parental notification for minors' abortions. I took a quick poll of my friends in the room, and they were divided, so I want to know what you all think. The amendment would prohibit abortion for a minor until 48 hours after the doctor notifies a parent or legal guardian. The requirement can be waived if the minor provides, in court, clear and convincing evidence that a waiver is in her best interest. The voter pamphlet included arguments and rebuttals from both sides. Here are some excerpts (emphasis all theirs):
- Argument in Favor of Proposition 4: It's time to close the loophole in California law that allows minor girls to be taken for secret chemical or surgical abortions by anyone — even an adult male who impregnated her — WITHOUT THE DOCTOR NOTIFYING ANY FAMILY MEMBER. These predators can even take girls out of school to hide their crimes. . . . Proposition 4 would require doctors to notify a parent or, in case of parental abuse, another adult family member.
- Argument Against Proposition 4: A SCARED, PREGNANT TEEN who can't go to her parents can feel trapped and desperate. Instead of seeking the counseling and safe medical care she needs, she MAY CHOOSE AN UNSAFE, BACK ALLEY, ILLEGAL ABORTION, GO ACROSS THE BORDER, OR EVEN CONTEMPLATE SUICIDE. . . . If our daughters couldn't come to us, for whatever reason, the most important thing is keeping them safe. Think about it: she's pregnant, she can't go to her parents, and she's already desperate. She isn't going to go to court to reveal the most intimate details of her life to an unfamiliar judge in a impersonal courthouse.
You can read the full arguments and rebuttals here.
Rivaldi
3 Suisses
Fly London
I think it's vital that the people who are legally in charge of those minors be given notice before any invasive surgery.
1I agree Dave.
2This is an interesting topic, and one of the only issues the manfriend and I disagree on. I hold a pretty firm line: I'm against anything that I think could lead someone to try to a do-it-yourself abortion. He thinks it's crazy that a kid can't get an aspirin from the school nurse without parental consent but could have surgery surgery without them knowing.
3UnDave, does your opinion change if it's a chemical abortion rather than a surgical one?
Frankly, I think we need stricter abortion laws (my idea is 48 hours before you can have the procedure, mandatory counseling before/after,) but this isn't what I think should happen.
4I don't understand why in this day and age anyone thinks parental consent would lead to back alley abortions. Unfortunately, the stigma of teenage pregnancy isn't there, and for some girls it's almost a badge of honor. I want to know when someone does anything to any of my children (or my sisters' children).
5I meant that I want my sisters to know for their children. Sorry for the confusion.
6>I don't understand why in this day and age anyone thinks parental consent would lead to back alley abortions.
Um, because it happens? What kind of information are you basing the that teens are proud to be pregnant on?
7My children can't get medication at school w/out my consent (not even a tylenol).. It used to be that they could but not anymore.
and I know I'm not Dave but since I agreed with his original comment, I'm going to answer the "chemical abortion" question too
and my answer is no it does not make any difference, I am legally responsible for my minor children and therefore should be informed of any kind of procedure being done on him/her. I have to sign for them to get a piercing or a tattoo I would expect to be notified if my child were having any other kind of medical procedure as well.
8This is a complicated issue. There are so many shades of gray. While I tend to favor parental notification, there are some situations where notifitying the parents could cause more harm than good. What about the teenager who's parent is an abuser? Will that teenager go to court and tell their story to a judge?
9The work I do daily with the children in this area. The teens talk openly about friends who are sexually active, and some who have gotten pregnant, all like it's not a big thing.
10If the parent is the abuser, don't you think he would want to have the baby aborted to hide his crime?
11and if the parent is the abuser then authorities knowing about it we could crack down on this type of abuse.
There has to be a good way to handle this. If the child tells the people at the clinic that they are afraid of their parents or tells them of abuse at home etc. why couldn't an advocate be assigned to the child to talk to the parents together and if the accusations were true then an investigation could ensue, no? I realize too that that will open doors to unwarranted cases... but again there has to be a better way to handle this.
12Well, it makes sense that the teens who are willing to talk openly in front of you about it would not be ashamed. I mean, if someone was ashamed of being pregnant or if they had self-induced a miscarriage, do you think they would mention it casually to you?
I don't think I'm explaining clearly, but if you were to say, "I have never heard a kid I work with talk about being ashamed of being pregnant or about giving themselves an abortion," I wouldn't be surprised, because someone who was in the position would not be likely to say something about it.
13Dave when I say abuser, that could also mean that the parent is physically and/or emotionally abusive.
14I had a friend in highschool whose mother tried to force her to have an abortion. She stopped talking to her, buying her food, and would not take her to a doctor for prenatal care. I know this is different from the topic. But sometimes involving the parent can make a bad situation worse.
15Well, it's complicated. There are definitely some girls who are too afraid to tell their parents because they don't think they would be supportive or caring. An old friend of mine had a girlfriend whom he impregnated. He was 19 and she was 17. He wanted the baby. She didn't. Instead of talking to her parents about getting some advice and help, she kept slamming herself against her bedposts to induce hemorrhaging of the fetus. She was successful but suffered from postpartum depression afterwards. Their relationship took for the worst... She never did get help.
16Against. It was their decision to have sex, it should be their choice to take care of it.
17Lizrocks, are you against parental notification or against abortion generally? I'm confused.
18i don't think that anything is black and white anymore. i feel like a parent of a minor should know what's going on in their children's lives but you can't really fault a teen for wanting to take care of things in the hopes of avoiding their mom and dad being upset or diappointed with them. i think that as with my stance on abortion in general, this is a case by case thing.
19an abortion not only has physical risks, but also mental and emotional. The parent, or gaurdian has a right to know, so that they can watch out for depressed or potentially suicidal behavior.
20Am I the only one that thinks "predators hiding their crime" is more than a bit of a stretch for the for-argument?
A girl has the right to make this decision as a teenager. If she was stupid enough to get knocked up, she should definitely have the freedom to remedy her mistake on her own.
I worry if parents were notified, the girls could face severe consequences at home. Some of these girls have crazy pro-life parents that would punish them for considering "murder".
Every person has a right to their own body.
21I realize there are other issues to consider, but It's hard for me to be ok with a child getting an abortion w/o parental notification. If I were a parent I would want to know and I would hope that I knew what was going on with my child.
22This really is complicated, because I know there are cases where a teenage girl really can't go to her parents. It could put her in a dangerous situation. However, I think the law recognizes that and makes the exception allowing a judge to give her a waiver. Depending on how long this process would take (because time is definitely a factor) I would vote for this law.
23"I worry if parents were notified, the girls could face severe consequences at home. Some of these girls have crazy pro-life parents that would punish them for considering "murder"."
Isn't that a bit of a stretch to vote to remove the parents from the decision making process?
24UnDave, I know a girl who got an abortion. She was some sort of moron and put it on her credit card, which her parents see. They found out what happened, and then refused to pay for college for her. .... Doesn't that seem like an overreaction? Girls with parents like hers shouldn't have to tell their parents.
I just thought of this part - will the parents of father of the baby be called, too? Or will only the girl have to deal with her parents' knowledge?
25If you're brave enough to get an abortion, you should be brave enough to tell your parents. But that's speaking from my perspective, because my parents aren't that scary.
26You know, I would like to know more of the story. How old was the daughter? Was she a "problem child"? What kind of student was she? If this was the umpteenth challenge the parents had to face with this girl, I can understand saying enough, if you are old enough to do this, you are old enough to fend for yourself. I know of a girl who got pregnant while a senior, and had an abortion, and her parents kicked her out. To just hear that part, you would think the parents were incredibly harsh, but what you don't know is the daughter had been staying out sometimes all weekend, and not telling her parents where she was, and then coming home with an attitude and expecting mom and dad to do whatever she needed done.
27"They found out what happened, and then refused to pay for college for her. .... Doesn't that seem like an overreaction? Girls with parents like hers shouldn't have to tell their parents."
Yes, that does sound like an overreaction, but you shouldn't get an abortion in order to get a free college education. Getting your college education paid for is a privilege & parents who don't pay for college are not abusive. Parents who physically abuse their children should not be notified about their daughter's abortion, but in other cases they should be. I think abortion should be available if that's what the family/girl chooses, but this is a serious decision and teenagers should not go through that alone.
28I also feel that there is a hard line to draw with this issue. While I do think that as minors parents should no of a major health issue going on in their child's lives. However with the father i had i can't imagine his reaction if i told him this. He is very against abortions and after hearing from my mother (who he's divorced from) that at 17 me and my boyfriend were having oral sex he refused to ever let me see or talk to any boys again, never say after school, wouldn't allow me to wear certain kinds of clothes such as tank tops, and tried to force me to go to chruch (im agnostic) needless to say i left him to live with my mother, who was upset but still understanding. If he found out i was having sex and choosing to have an abortion i would be afraid to come home to him, he has a bit of a temper...
29I hope I create a relationship with my daughter that would make her feel that she could come to me, but if my daughter was afraid to tell me then I would want her to be able to choose an abortion. Every time it comes up on the California ballot (and it seems to me it comes up a lot) I vote against parental notification. This decision should be hers.
30"Isn't that a bit of a stretch to vote to remove the parents from the decision making process?"
I believe in Doctor-Patient confidentiality and, like I said, the right a person has to their own body above all else. I don't think there's any stretch here. A girl old enough to get pregnant is old enough to decide to get an abortion, and has a right to the privacy of it.
I have no vote on this issue because I am not American, but in Canada the practice is that physicians will NOT tell the parents.
A teenager can get an abortion here, and not only is it free (so no charging to the credit card -- sorry but I LOL'd at that one haha) her parents will not be notified. That's the way it should be. There's no reason to involve the parents.
31Sorry, to clarify I'm against parental notification.
My feelings on abortion don't apply here as I'm not a pregnant teenager.
32Yeah I agree with AriadneSE. And I can relate.
33--
It's different in every case. But I do think whatever the solution will be, it should only come out as positive for the teen. I don't think that every dad or mom would react to the news: "oh my, well we are gonna have to talk about sex education at home, thank you for calling". u know.
hithatsmybike:"I believe in Doctor-Patient confidentiality and, like I said, the right a person has to their own body above all else. I don't think there's any stretch here. A girl old enough to get pregnant is old enough to decide to get an abortion, and has a right to the privacy of it." exactly!!
34"I don't think that every dad or mom would react to the news: "oh my, well we are gonna have to talk about sex education at home, thank you for calling". u know."
HAHAHAHAHA seriously!
35"I hope I create a relationship with my daughter that would make her feel that she could come to me, but if my daughter was afraid to tell me then I would want her to be able to choose an abortion."
Thanks Steph, I wasn't sure how to put my thoughts into words, but you did it for me!
36If she can't even get a shot from her doctor without consent, why should she be able to have a surgical procedure? There is a risk of infection and emotional and mental issues. A teen is not mature enough to make their own medical decisions. In this situation the teen would probably not weigh any risks and just look at it as a means to an end.
37hithatsmybike, I completely agree. I will get to vote on prop 4 since I live in california and I'm voting against parental notification. I knew lots of girls in high school who got pregnant and some that got abortions without their parents ever finding out and that was just the best thing because their parents knowing would have put them in dangerous situations. and unfortunately, if this prop gets passed, girls and their bf's will find ways to have abortions, regardless of it being illegal or not.
38"girls and their bf's will find ways to have abortions, regardless of it being illegal or not."
This is just ridiculous. Why not get rid of all laws, because some people are going to find ways to break those laws. Some laws are meant to help people, and letting the parents be involved for support and guidance is crucial.
39Excellent point dave!
40Who would actually think that it is okay for a child to get an abortion without parental notification? What parent would actually vote for that?
41Adults without parents.
42GRRR Adults without Children...
That's better.
43UnDave, sadly not all parents are supportive in issues such as this.
44No, but not all parents are maniacs either. I'm betting the vast majority are, and they dexerve the opportunity to help their child.
45I'm with other posters here in the sense that in the future, should I have a daughter, I would hope to foster a relationship with her that would allow her to come to me without fear of punishment if she found herself pregnant (though I also plan to go to all lengths to avoid this by providing her with a healthy parent-child relationship, birth control and common sense).
But let's look at reality: the population of the world, or in this case, the USA, is not made up of rational people with superb parenting skills and healthy, open relationships with their offspring.
It's made up of plenty of sh*tty, irrational caregivers completely incapable of raising a healthy, well-adjusted child able to exercise safe sex, let alone dealing with the consequences thereof.
Removing Doctor-Patient Confidentiality takes away the ONLY human right any person on earth possesses: the right to themselves.
I'm both surprised and highly amused that any freedom-loving American would be in support of REMOVING freedoms from its citizens, below the age of majority may they be.
Parental notification is a nice way of saying parental interference.
A person needs to feel safe in their physician's care. This is a fundamental relationship between healthcare providers and their patients that needs to exist for any good to come of their interactions. If you remove a patient's privacy, you remove their access to safe healthcare. That's morally wrong on SO many accounts.
This isn't a law that protects anyone. It exposes victims, and makes them accessible for further punishment.
46To those of you who are opposed to this law, I would like to ask what you think about the waiver? Wouldn't that protect those who have valid reasons for not telling their parents?
47That just gives the judge the right to her body instead of her parents.
There shouldn't be any jumping through hoops. This is Patient to Doctor. Period.
Chances are the girl is already terrified -- let's not make her announce it to strangers so she can get permission from someone who has no claim to her life or body in the first place.
The waiver is: another deterrent, an unnecessary delay, a source of further embarassment, an increase of stress, more red tape, and lastly, -- and let's not forget this -- a potential denial.
48Kids don't have a lot of freedoms that adults have. They are still under the authority of their parents, they can't get married w/o parental consent, they can't vote, drink, or smoke, can't drive until they are 16 (or whatever age). They shouldn't be having sex either. (I'm not naive enough to think that they won't--so I'm all for sex education). Getting pregnant certainly doesn't mean they are mature enough to be parents or go through an abortion alone. No doubt there are bad parents out there, but we still let bad parents make every other decision about their children--why is this one any different?
49There's laws for voting, drinking (stupid), smoking (stupid), and driving at all pertain to ages, but what's the age for sex in the USA?
Is there law? How is it enforced? What are the punishments/consequences of the crime?
All the other laws you named are enforced and have legal consequences, but there aren't any for a 15 year old couple's sexual relationship.
Also, all of the above (except drinking & smoking) affect OTHER people, but a person's sex life doesn't (or at least it shouldn't!).
Sex isn't a federal issue, and nor should it ever be.
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