Just as we got rid of the "le bag" in the 80's.

what foreign slang do we have here?

"Hasta la vista"
"ciao"
"nanu-nanu"

I think efforts to preserve the purity and integrity of one's national language are commendable.

I live in florida, which is a melting pot, there is no official language here!

Languages have always grown by borrowing from each other. If you refuse to let it grow, it will die.

This is silly. They should first take all the Latin influences out of their language.

I highly doubt that the Italian language is going to die for lack of a few Americanizations, Mich. In any case, even if they can prevent Americanisms from being considered acceptable in written communication, I'm sure most Italians, especially young ones, will continue to use American phrases and slang in conversation.

I wish that we were as committed to preserving the integrity of formal written communications, rather than hearing stories about English teachers who consider it acceptable for students to turn in papers written in textspeak.

There's a difference between "textspeak" and actual words borrowed from another language. Is it only American words that will be banned or will all words from other languages be forbidden as well? Italian did not spring from the earth a fully formed language. It developed from other languages over a very long period of time. Borrowing new words from other cultures is part of the process, and I think it's silly and snobbish to try and stop that.

That's ridiculous. I'm with Michelin, if a language doesn't grow, it dies. We use Italian-influenced words, they use English-influenced words. This is precisely what I found silly about the Académie française. I go to a very American bar called Rendez Vous, I tell restaurant patrons "Bon Apetit," we just use French in slang, it's normal that the languages borrow from each other.

Language is an important part of culture. I don't think this is so much a backlash against Americanization as it is an attempt to hold onto their distinct culture against the global culture. Ultimately I think it will fail, which I find sad.

Agreed, MM.

Language is a part of national identity, and I don't see anything silly about trying to preserve that in the face of globalization and the encroachment of Americanizations into the language.

I do also think this will fail. I applaud the effort, as I said, but it will fail inevitably.

Just like English should be the national language of America. We should strive to shove out all foreign influences. That's commendable, alright.

They have said nothing about striving to shove out foreign influences. They are merely trying to preserve their own national language. It's not as if they're forbidding people from learning other languages, it's not as if they're banning foreign TV shows and movies, it's not as if they're discouraging people from foreign travel and experiences, it's not as if every McDonald's in Rome is going to be closed down due to government mandate.

First of all, no one is talking about a mandate. What we are talking about is striving to shove out foreign influences from a language:

Dante Alighieri Society wants to erase words like "le weekend, "cool" and "OK" from conversational and written Italian.

And, by the way, I'm fairly sure that if you shove out the words of a foreign culture, you also, in effect, shove out what they mean. I think that's pretty obvious.

"They have said nothing about striving to shove out foreign influences. They are merely trying to preserve their own national language"

That doesn't make any sense. Incorporating new words into a language is a major part of foreign influences. Adding new words also does not do anything to get rid of old words. It just helps the language to grow. If a culture grows, and technology grows, then language also has to grow so that we have new words to describe these things.

I don't know Michelin, Europe is so far ahead of us progressively and their culture is so beautiful.

I think we should try to push out all Italian and French words from our vocabulary too. I think that they are ruining our culture. It's kind of sad that we won't be able to be stagnant forever.

It seems as though all of the world's major languages are moving towards an Anglicized version of their language and that's not evolving, that's just merging.

Organic, you are the one who made it sound like a mandate against all things by saying "We should strive to shove out all foreign influences."

And no, you don't have to incorporate words from another language in order to describe new technologies and developments. There's a thing called using one's own language. New concepts appear, and you come up with your own language's way of describing or naming them. Language can grow in more ways than simply incorporating another language's words.

Is there even a point to having a discussion with you, Organic? It seems to me that all you do is twist people's words around to extremes in order to make snarky comments.

"that's not evolving, that's just merging."

How is merging not evolving? Do you understand how languages are formed in the first place?

I'm all for preserving a culture's identity through language, but the very essence of language is that it is changes along with the times. "Bootylicious" is now in the OED for crying out loud (though I'm not sure if that is a good thing).

I did read a fascinating article recently in which a Harvard study found that the most commonly used words are the slowest to evolve over time. I wonder if this means that "bootylicious" will be obsolete in 100 years? I hope so!

Jude, what's the difference between making up your own word and borrowing a word from somebody else? There really isn't one. Except maybe making up your own word makes it more confusing.

"There's a thing called using one's own language." Talk about snarky.

Striving to shove out foreign language is not a manddate. It's what you strive for.

I believe that Latin was borrowed heavily by Italian people to make the Italian language. Now, the Italian people wish to borrow English words, but Jude says no.

It is too late, and the culture is done borrowing words, because it is now perfect.

It's interesting that the Romance languages at least all came from a common language (Latin) and now are trying to maintain their differentness.

bibliophile, I think it's safe to guess "bootylicious" will be obsolete in ten years

Maybe I'm just biased because I was this close to being a linguistics major and languages really fascinate me. So, having an understanding (basic though it is) of how languages change and what that change does to the language, as well as its reflection on what is happening with the culture I just find it sad that everything seems to be merging. That was my only point.

Mich, the difference between coming up with your own word and borrowing from another language is that the new word will, one hopes, have sprung from the phonetic and grammatical rules of the original language, rather than being shoehorned in from a completely different language.

Merging and evolving are two different things. Evolution happens from within, using the existent basis of the language to come up with new developments. Merging just involves borrowing already-existent words and phrasings from other languages.

I have nothing against foreign languages. Clearly, as I speak four. I think learning a foreign language is wonderful on many levels, and brings the very important benefit of also increasing cultural understanding of the country whose language one learns. I just also think that trying to keep one's national language pure and distinct from other languages is good as well.

No language is "pure" because they all came from other languages. Certainly they have all grown by borrowing words from other cultures, especially dominant cultures. I don't think Italian will cease to be it's own language simply because a few Italian people say "le weekend". Why should they try to stop the ongoing process that formed their language as they know it?

And furthermore, merging is a part of evolution. Two separate distinct entities come together to form a third distinct entity. Two separate populations come together to form a third population more adept to survival.

"I believe that Latin was borrowed heavily by Italian people to make the Italian language."

You do realize that Latin was the language of the Romans and that Rome actually is in Italy, don't you?

You do realize that Italy has not always been Italy, don't you?

I think that different cultures will always borrow from different cultures for any number of reasons and it's pretty silly to try to put restraints on language. That being said, buon fine della settimana a tutto!

"I don't think Italian will cease to be it's own language simply because a few Italian people say "le weekend". ... Two separate populations come together to form a third population more adept to survival."

To turn your argument around, I don't think Italian will die for lack of "le weekend," "cool," and "ok," either.

But it certainly won't grow. It won't be able to adapt to changing culture and technology. And over time, a language that can't (or refuses to) keep up with the people who speak it will become useless. And then, yes, it might die.

I sort of understand where the Dante Alighieri Society is coming from, but I don't think English words should be completely erased from the Italian language.

Here in Germany, we sort of have the same situation. People use a LOT of English words, especially advertising agencies, etc. I don't mind incorporating foreign words into the language, if those words are more specific or simply more fitting. In short, if they actually add anything to the language. What really annoys me is advertisers and companies using English words, even though there are perfectly fitting German words for the same thing. For example, Deutsche Bahn (German rail) has been using the word "Counter" for a while now, even though before that it was always just "Schalter". I mean, the German word isn't even more complicated or anything, the only reason they use "counter" now is to appear more "modern". Don't get me wrong, using foreign words can be a lot of fun, especially, if you use them creatively and properly incorporate them into your language. A lot of the time though, it's simply ridiculous.

Well exactly. It's not as if the Italians just went and took Latin words to make their own language.

Well, while they're at it, they better evict all of the words they've borrowed from other Romance languages over the years, like Milanese and Western Lombard to make modern italian.

Or is it only in 2008 that it's too late to borrow words? Or only when the place you're borrowing words from is too far away? Why stop with English?

As I've said, there are ways to adapt a language to changing culture and new concepts that don't necessarily involve borrowing another country's words wholesale. Italians aren't going to be useless and die out for lack of a few American phrases and slang.

That being said, I don't expect the push against Anglicization to actually work. But being aware of the changes happening in one's language, and being proactive to steer it in the direction one feels better, is in itself admirable.

Oh, and I hope "bootylicious" dies out as fast as possible.

i love italy

Michelin, while I agree that a language has to keep changing to survive, I don't think that change necessarily has to come from foreign languages.
This might not exactly be the best example, but Icelandic doesn't actually use foreign words, instead they just make up their own words, whenever there are new inventions/developments. Now, of course, Icelandic isn't exactly a major language, but, considering that Iceland only has about 300,000 inhabitants and the language is still very much alive, that system does actually seem to work for them.

Jude, I hope adding the suffix "-licious" to ANY word dies out as fast as possible.

Except delicious and maybe a few others I haven't thought of just yet.

And again, Milan and Lombardy actually are in Italy, so it would make sense that their dialects had an influence on the language.

Languages are MEANT to grow and change and be influenced. This is just a natural progression of things.

How silly. They were not part of modern "Italy" when their dialects were borrowed to create modern Italian.

It's so silly to assume that because they are now in modern day Italy that they weren't borrowing words from other Romantic dialects. Just like the Italian people are attempting to do now, in borrowing from English, another Romantic language.

I hope they also intend to remove cavaliere, accetta, dardo, freccia. All borrowed from French.

"in borrowing from English, another Romantic language." Meant another language borrowing from Romantic languages.

"Just like the Italian people are attempting to do now, in borrowing from English, another Romantic language."

When did English become a Romantic language??

Madchen, Organic corrected the statement already.

Madchen, where did the Italian word "papà" come from?

Sorry, I posted that before I read your correction (hadn't updated in between).

Still, how is one Romance language "borrowing" (if you can even call it that. The history of modern Italian does seem quite a bit more complicated than that.) from another very closely related one the same thing as using words from a language belonging to a different group entirely?
Again, I really don't think most Italians are bothered my a few English words here and there, it's just that English is used so excessively now (especially in advertizing, etc.) that it actually is somewhat annoying.

How about the Italian word "sofà" Madchen?