While I am totally against Scientology and its coercive methods of swindling millions of dollars from its members, I do have to wonder by what methodology France (or any other country) could use to distinguish a "real" religion from a "fake" one (which seems to be the ultimate issue in this case). How do you separate a "legitimate" religion from cults and scams? Is it how long the religion has been practiced? What criteria would one use?

i agree Jude. How can they determine if a religion is "real" or not? I think if they really pursue this, they are just going to come up empty.

For most other countries I'd say they shouldn't do this sort of thing, but considering it's Germany, I'm okay with them putting the lid on weird personality cults.

Rac, it's France.

Is there any way of getting the ICC to prosecute Tom Cruise for crimes against humanity?

Ugh, so this woman is suing because she's an idiot and willfully bought into Scientology? Give me a break.

And Jude, I'm right there with you on how complicated it would be to distinguish the "good" religions from the "bad" cults.

Mich, Germany is mentioned in the linked post. They are taking steps against Scientology, too.

Ah! Thanks Kastarte, sorry Rac. I didn't bother to look at the link. Is my face red?

Good for France!

Any religion that mandates payment for the honor of being taught its basic doctrine is a red flag. Asking for tidings and passing the plate is one thing.. but thousands and thousands of dollars until you are basically broke, brainwashed and ready to cut off all non believing family members as trouble sources and signing a thousand year contract for service.. that tips the scale to cult/fraud.

Any religion where past members need to "run away" and seek "asylum" from scientology friends and family with fear for their lives.. hmm red flag.

I now have a good friend who is a Scientologist and just to see what all the hubbub is all about I am going to take an introduction class, because I'm tired of having this debate rage on all around me and I still don't know diddly about Scientology. I'm certainly not going to base my judgments on rumor either.

I applaud France for being bold enough to do this. I wish America would follow suit.

Isn't there a wildly popular religion where you have to give up 10% of your income or something.

Was it Kabbalah???

Dream, I expect you are referring to tithing, where you give 10% of your earnings to the church, so the church can then help others. The difference is you are free to give, or not give. You are not expected to give, and the teachings aren't withheld just because you didn't give.

ok -- not to be argumentative (and this would be a first - I know) -- but isn't that sort of practice implied. As in while we don't with hold the teachings - we will greatly put pressure on you to give -- give all that you can.

Where I'm from they do this.

The difference is that in Scientology you can't advance in the religion and become "clear" until you pay to do courses.
http://counterfeitdreams.blogspot.com/

This personal account is compelling and an indepth. I was blown away by the para military aspect of Scientology. I reccomend hypnotix read it before undertaking any courses.
I am convinced it is a cult.
They were never supposed to be exempt from taxes, money changed hands on that one.

I don't know what religion you "subscribe" to, but the mainline protestant churches that I've been a member of (Methosdist and Lutheran) don't do such underhanded tactics.

I think we should respect all religions (or equally disrespect them). On the surface, Scientology sounds a little weird. So does a guy turning water into wine, or coming back from the dead. If you've ever been to some of the old cathedrals in Europe, then you know that Scientology isn't the only religion to amass a great amount of wealth from it's followers.

dream- I also attended a mainstream Lutheran church. You are encouraged to give what you can, but they publish the amount collected each week, and the amount needed to meet the budget. The budget is just for our specific church, and I don't think we ever have enough to send money to the Missouri Synod Lutheran Church, it all stays to run our church. The budget is made available to all members to vote on once a year, and everything is outlined in it including salaries and charities. Any extra cause we run into during the year (Hurricane fund for example) gets its own collection.

However, I have been to the mega-churches before, and yeah, I would say there is quite a bit less transparency there. More "talking in tongues" while we conveniently slip the plate under your nose.

Maybe the issue isn't whether or not something is a "real" religion, but whether the $$ collected goes to legitimate expenses, based on reality. For example, if the scientologists said, "come give us $50, it goes towards rent" not "purification" then maybe it wouldn't be an issue. Like, if my church started saying, "give us $50 and we'll make sure you get sent to heaven."

But yeah, I don't think the distinction should be made on the basis of "real religion" since it's all equally suspicious as far as I'm concerned.

In reference to the old cathedrals in Europe...

The Catholic church got in big trouble for all the horrible stuff they've done and have since reformed. This is what the church of scientology should do, they need to get in trouble (imo) for their crazy ways.

What trouble did the Catholic church get in? Were they sued for The Crusades?

lol, no. they were telling people that they could absolve their sins and get into Heaven if they gave the church all their money.

...hence all the elaborate cathedrals in europe.

In the 1500's, the catholic bishops regularly demanded that dioces pay more and more, so those bishops could build bigger and more elaborate cathedrals. Martin Luther stood up and said no, among other things (he was German), and the church defrocked him. This was the beginning of the reformation movement, and the first protestant church was created.

You have to admit though, those churches are really spectacular

Churches...cathedrals, you catch my drift

So a few guys got defrocked (whatever defrock dat means). Where is the big trouble the church got in?

Defrocked means that they were stripped of their titles, positions, duties, and privileges as priests. Depriested

Gluu- no, Martin Luther tried to reform the church and had to leave, the church didn't actually get in any trouble, though I think they eventually stopped some of the practices like selling indulgences. And certainly, I think except for a random prince here or there, the government certainly wasn't trying to regulate the church!

That's a big thing because that was their livelihood. I would be similar to taking a physicist, and dropping him off in the middle of Africa. He can probably survive, but he isn't really prepared to adapt to the changes.

And I agree that we should give equal respect/disrespect to all religions, but I think that it wouldn't be awful to make a law (at least theoretically) along the lines of: "religions cannot sell religious services associated with purification, salvation, baptism, etc. and can only collect funds in order to run the church." Because that is the crappy thing about Scientology, you have to pay to get saved along the way; that really does make it seem fraudulent. And aren't they having some trouble with the church of prosperity or whatever it is that tells people if they give money to the church they will become prosperous and god will bless them. Stuff like that seems to be significantly different than passing around the collection plate.

Shoot. It was also the mindset. The priests were God's line of communication to the people, and the people trusted the priests implicitly. When Martin Luther began seeking reform from the church, and encouraged the masses to think for themselves, many thought "Why do I need this guy, when I can speak directly to God myself?"

I've never been able to speak directly to God. I've always had to leave a voice mail.

snowbunny I believe you're talking about "prosperity churches/gospel". Ministers like Creflo Dollar tell people "if you sow a seed on a good ground, you can expect a harvest.” Kenneth Hagin is another properity preacher.

Scientology is more like a big business than a religion.

Scientology preys on people who are sincerely looking for something more in their lives.

"The Church of Scientology and seven of its leaders will soon face trial in France for fraud and illegally practicing as pharmacists."

I'm not going to even think about whether it is a true religion or not (why not, anyway?), but it is still a business, obviously, and therefore I think what they're going to trial for is a legitimate issue.

However, that woman seriously made a mistake, but there's personal judgment involved in this. Do you buy Kabballa everything just because you can and they say it does something? Do you see a fortune teller and ask for a refund? It doesn't exactly work that way....

GREAT picture of Tom Cruise. Why does he looks like a young Donald Trump there to me?

Thanks for answering -- yeah in some larger churches out here -- people get the "holy ghost" -- and the "collection plate is passes". If don't put any money in there's -- ah -- muttering. I just gave up on that church -- but I remain Baptist with no church. If there's something I want to know -- I can turn to the Bible myself. I've lost all faith in man in regards to them teaching me about GOD.

lilblu- yes, that's what I was referring to. I don't know enough to accuse them of fraud, there was some article in US News (or Time) but I don't remember the details, except that their ministers were ridiculously wealthy from the donations of their churchgoers. I don't remember what they told the church members in order to get them to donate.

Jae- the thing is, if that woman was seriously convinced that the church was her way to salvation/purification/spirituality, can we really judge her for forking over her cash? I mean, think about the things that aren't monetary that people will do in "normal" religions in order to "saved." Telling someone they might go to hell, or won't achieve whatever it is Scientologists want to achieve, that is a pretty powerful motivator, ya know? Just because we look at Scientology as crazy, and mainstream Christianity as normal doesn't mean that Scientologists don't believe that their actions have a religious and spiritual meaning. I mean, I'm an atheist actually, so it's all crazy to me! But, I think that these organizations at least shouldn't be allowed to encourage their members to part with their money on the basis that it will procure some sort of religious spiritual level, or place in heaven. I really think donations in many Christian churches, if they were so up front about it like mine, that is where to draw the difference; the transparency in where the funds go, not the legitimacy of the religion.

Fuzzles strikes again.

Uh, the part I would definitely say the French have a right to investigate "is illegally practicing as pharmacists".

If you start selling people drugs with a spiritual context, and lack medical training to back up your assignation of meds to the person, that's just plain....iffy.

As far as "fraud" goes, it gets a bit stickier. Could atheists then sue every church for "fraud"? Could every church, in contrast, sue all the atheists? Can Islam sue Christianity? Can Christians sue Jews for the whole "what Jesus" thing?

That gets a bit dodgy.

Fuzzles...

I admit I know very little about the Church of Scientology except for the craziness that is Tom Cruise. Perhaps I'm being naive or ill-informed but if the French government deems it necessary to investigate, then I trust they have good reasons.

I am very confused about one thing. "The Church of Scientology and seven of its leaders will soon face trial in France for fraud and illegally practicing as pharmacists." and ".....church prescribed drugs" What? Pharmacists, drugs? I thought they were totally against using any kind of medication? And, the idea of paying over $30,000 to get some kind of a religious starter kit, seems questionable! No wonder the French government considers it a commercial business.

Many people have died, committed suicide or killed others while following Scientology teachings and going off their meds for vitamins and exercise.. etc. http://www.whyaretheydead.net/

Problem is the so called church is richer than the vatican (supposedly.. since they are a religion they do not need to say how much money they have or be taxed on it).. and they are shrouded in mystery.. good luck making anything stick.

A "religion" created by a perverted Science Fiction writer who said the best way to make money is to invent a religion.. was right and they are swimming in it and they are sue happy.. litigation specialists.

Create a pseudo "religion" where the only way to learn and get "clear" is to pay thousands and thousands of dollars for the right of access. Make each level more expensive then the next.. reel them in and make them dependent..then make them afraid to leave.

Claim that all forms of psychiatry is evil, that medicines for schizophrenia is BS, that in fact all mental/neurological disorders do not exist (all people can heal themselves if they try hard enough and are "clear" enough.. if you are unable to heal yourself.. say from autism..you are not a good enough person..you need to pay more money for more cleansing sessions), and exploit people for money.

If someone claims scientology is wrong then they are fair game..as defined by Hubbard..“May be deprived of property or injured by any means by any Scientologist without any discipline of the Scientologist. May be tricked, sued or lied to or destroyed.”

Their best weapon is your taped "clearing" or "auditing" sessions.. you are hooked up to a basic lie detector (e meter) and asked questions about your past, sexual history, secrets, fantasies, things you are embarrassed about.. to clear you.. but if you leave then they will use that information against you publicly if you attempt to speak out against them.. as if you had confessed to a priest and then left the church and they posted your confessions on the internet or sent them to your significant other or parents or employer.

It is a scary organization. The more you research them and people who have left.. esp the Sea Org branch of scientology the scarier they get..

Let me also say just to cover my ass that this is just my opinion..(please do not kill me Xenu) and that everyone has the right to believe what they want and give their money to whomever they want to (please don't hurt me) and that Tom Cruise is very straight and virile and not creepy in any way and I am very much looking forward to Valkrye. And that him leaving Nicole over night even though possibly pregnant and her not getting the better side of the custody rights to the children and apparently never being able to say anything about scientolgy ever isn't weird in any way..and that is is just a strange coincidence that two of your ex wives were able to get pregnant after they remarried yet somehow not with you.. happens to everybody.. .. TOTALLY normal. All American hero that Tom...

Has anyone read what the origins of Scientology. Like where the thetans come from? Millions of years ago the universe was over populated. The evel ruler Xanu took millions of people from other planets to earth and threw them into a volcano. This was after they were frozen. The souls of these people floated up and were captured and forced to watch videos of "false realities" and then released. It is these floating thetans that attache themselves to the humans on earth. That would be us. Scientology trys to get rid of these thetans because they are bad for us. The whole bs story was the end results of a drug filled life of a pedophile, L. Ron Hubbard. His whole life was a lie starting with his childhood through his service in the navy. While in the navy he ordered the ship he commanded to fire on an island of the coast of California. The island was owned by Mexico and he was removed from command so there would not be an international incident. Scientology is just a racket to make money. Why did Tom Cruise get to such a high level so quickly. Others have be members longer but they did not give as much money. Get the facts first. Look on the web but don't go to scientology to answer your questions, they are experts in brainwashing.

It's about time!

Check out http://www.xenu.net/ to learn more about Scientology.

snowbunny-- I understand what you're saying, and do sympathize with the woman. I definitely think the "Church" is out of line and as I said, I support the legal action being taken against it by the government, and of course the woman should not be judged for whatever reasons or faith she had. However, it was still her mistake, as she makes it apparent to be a mistake now, and her choice; she put her faith in them, and especially because she was convinced, I don't think that necessarily means she deserves anything from them. I can choose to believe whoever I want, what to expose myself to in the first place, and where I decide to put my money...my choice, and I deal with the consequences. Besides, the situation was shady to begin with, and she chose not to recognize the signs; she was signed up outside a metro station. If I choose to believe in the religion the guy preaches standing in the entrance to my college, and then I decide to buy pills and packets from him, my personal judgment is partially responsible. I can't just snap out of it and want the world to end for that person, because I let that happen to me.

Besides, religion is a tricky issue. You can't prove that it works and you can't prove that it doesn't. :/ So, to me, in that territory, it's kind of like, if you believe(d) it, it should be a non-issue. But it's a personal responsibility to recognize someone could use faith to take advantage of you.

Plus, to me, it is strange that an organization known, as Imabeliever states, to think that all people can heal themselves and as having a funky relationship with drugs to treat big-time illnesses, would "prescribe" it's own drug. Red flag....

Badlands-- creepy! Sounds like some kind of Vonnegut satire, except he'd make it nice and hilarious.
And someone once said to me that all religious stories were about the same (whether you believe one version or not)...but not that one! Maybe that's a clue.

This bit just made me laugh:

"The Church of Scientology denounced Monday's ruling, saying it was being "stigmatized" by the courts.

"The special treatment reserved for the Church of Scientology Celebrity Center raises questions about the equality of the justice system and the presumption of innocence," it said in a statement."

"Special treatment" and "Celebrity Center" in one sentence = priceless.
That's exactly why countries like France and Germany don't consider Scientology a religion: they make you pay money to "advance spiritually", which makes it a business. They're not a non-profit organization.
What I don't get is why the other members put up with those "Celebrity Centers". I don't think I could ever belong to a church that treats me as a second-rate member.

So this woman cant read the fine print and she sues, and now the frenchies want to kick scientology out? I can understand that, seeing as how to be a scientologist you are required to pay a certain amount of money to move on up in the ranks, BUT if anyone is stupid enough to get involved they should go in fully informed and not cry "fraud" when they get fleeced.

There is a huge scientology community here in florida, clearwater/tampa area and they have had a lot of trouble with the law and with backlash

sidenote- I still adore Tom Cruise, I know I know he is bonkers, but I cannot help myself.