Honestly, I'm the worst person to advise on this since I just got out of a 3-year, 2 years of living together relationship. He left, basically - I had the same trouble you had in that we talked marriage and kids casually all the time, but he always said we weren't ready... I guess we really weren't! I never would've moved in with him if I'd known there wouldn't be a proposal soon. I'm from a conservative family and put my ideals on the line. I guess I'm just saying I feel your pain. All I know is that I'm never, ever living with anyone again until there's a ring on my finger. As for your situation, if your relationship is strong, one of my friends kind of sort of talked aloud about moving out to her own place. That, erm, speeded things up. I'm not sure I'd do it, but perhaps it would work for you...

You are telling my story, too, girl... I really have no advice; I hope someone replies soon with something sage to say! I am not a patient person, and my boy keeps saying he is "working on things" and that "the wheels are turning," but we're both in our early 30s, and it really just doesn't take that freakin' long! So I totally get you, and I'll be watching and waiting with baited breath--not for the boy, but for someone's words of wisdom!

If a guy doesn't propose within two years, chances are he's never going to.

I don't really have advice on learning how to wait patiently, but maybe you could talk to him about why exactly he thinks the timing isn't right? If he has a good reason that makes sense to you, then it would probably be easier for you to wait because you understand why he is waiting.

honestly i don't know him but i think that there are two things one he might be saying the time isn't right if he doesn't have the money or the season is wrong for his idea of the perfect proposal. but two if you keep prying and he does have a ring i'm afraid you might get the proposal my cousin got. a ring tossed to her in the living room and asked "so what do you say?" it sucks knowing you two are going to be together for the rest of your lives and not having a ring or a symbol of that. but i would just hang tough.

Just stop thinking about that and relax. More you push, more he will be "not ready". If you feel love from him, everything is ok.

Since you've already talked about it, why don't you propose to him?

I know how you feel, it felt like a million years waiting for my husband to propose- Im just awful at waiting. Every holiday or special occasion I was on pins and needles. One day we went hiking and saw all these beautiful waterfalls, it was perfect. We set up a camera on a boulder and took a picture, he turned and stared into my eyes and told me he loved me and kissed me.......and then asked if I was ready to leave. I was crushed- I was SURE it was the moment.
It turned out he had the ring at his apt- he had bought it and picked it up the day before and he admitted to me later that he considered scrapping his original plan (that he had had all mapped out for over 4 months) and proposing right then, but since the ring was at his place he couldnt bring himself to ask without it. He asked one week later, on our anniversary, just like he planned.
I had tortured myself for months- waiting and turning myself inside out over it- and the whole time he had a plan.

I did know it was coming, we did everything a little back @ssward- we had a wedding date picked before we got engaged, I actually ordered my wedding dress before we actually got engaged (but we had gone ring shopping at that point and it was all picked out and actually now that I think about it, he had already talked to my dad- which is probably why my dad didnt flinch when we called him and told him we found the perfect dress and wanted to order it)

anyway- knowing its coming and the waiting is awful- but if he assures you that he DOES want to get married (to you of course) then all you can do is wait- does he know what kind of ring you want? can he afford it? My friend saved forever for his fiances ring bc he wanted to make sure he could give her the kind of ring he felt she deserved.

Why buy the cow when you can get the milk for free?
He is either a) biding his time with you until somebody better comes along (been there, done that) b) planning an elaborate proposal and you asking all the time is annoying him now because he wants to make it perfect or c) he is never going to propose.

It was actually after an episode of Californication where the lead guy (I forget his name) says to this other dude who is cheating on his wife with this mid-twenties girl "the cruelest thing you can do is rob a young woman of her chance to settle down and have kids"... and that pretty much prompted the break-up between me and my ex. It was for the best though, I have since realised he is FAR too childish for me!

The thing is, what is he waiting for? Christmas? Why don't you propose? I personally wouldn't have moved in with somebody who I wasn't CERTAIN was going to propose, discuss marriage and kids with me because I'm at an age now where I'm not getting any younger and these are now my priorities!!

Other sugars will probably say "QUIT YOUR WHINING" or "WHY IS MARRIAGE SO IMPORTANT STOP HASSLING HIM" or whatevers but you just have to evaluate the WHOLE situation and ask yourself if you are prepared to wait any longer for him.

If marriage is what you want then you seriously need to ask yourself if he can provide this. It's all well and good saying "well you have a good man who loves you, why ruin it like this?" but at the end of the day you can't stop a girl from wanting to have her perfect day...

I agree- marriage is very important to you so why don't you tell him that you don't want to be in this waiting position anymore? If he wants to marry you he will - if he has legit reasons (money career etc) I honestly have to side with him. I would not get married until I was completely secure and stable in my own life. If he doesn't and it making excuses maybe you need to move out and start living and stop waiting. It is never worth it to wait - and if you love someone and are happy in a relationship -think about what you really want and what is important. If you truly cannot be happy with a proposal and marriage, it may not be worth it to wait. And if you feel that what you two have is really important and marriage is just one element, well there is your answer.

I waited for 5 years for my boyfriend to propose...after a lot of chiding by me around year 4. He had always told me that we were going to get married...he just wasn't ready. He had been married before and it was very short lived, so I tried not to rush him, but I was about to turn 33 by the time he proposed. 7 months later (4 months before our wedding), he broke off our engagement and told me that he just didn't want to get married or have children. He felt like I had pressured him into marrying me, and I wish I had kept my mouth shut. There is a reason that he is waiting so long, so try and be rational and look for other signs...If you really want to get married and have a family, there will be someone that does as well. Good luck whatever you decide to do! BTW--I am so glad I got out before we ever got married than after. Dealing with calling off a wedding was heartbreaking, but a divorce would have been inevitable and a million times worse.

First of all.. There is no such thing as "the one."

There are many people that one could likely marry in life... And it's all about timing, not "settling for mister or miss 'right now.'"

Second... You are in your MID-20s. YOU ARE VERY YOUNG. There was an article in the NY Times this week about how couples who marry before the age of 50% likely to divorce. There was a recent study, which the article was referencing.

Personally, my advice to anyone before they get married is:
1. Make sure you can take care of yourself financially before you agree to the business contract that marriage is. (And it is a business contract!)
2. Figure out if you truly can communicate with the person you are thinking of marrying, or if you don't. I've met quite a few couples where all they do is argue when they disagree. They don't talk calmly. One person (usually the girl, but not always) ends up pouting or crying. And a marriage where that kind of crap happens isn't going to be a happy one.
3. And, advice from my Mum: "Realize that there are going to be times in your marriage when you are 'lovers' and times when you are more like 'friends.' If you can accept that, then you are ready to be married."

I think, if you truly have faith in your boyfriend, you need to chill out. If he is sending you messages that he loves you and wants to marry you some day, then you guys will get married. But you can't pressure him if he's not ready. Just chill out.

I agree with fluffyhelen. It could be many reasons why the timing isn't right.

If marriage is important to you, talk to him again. Don't let him persuade you that it is "just a piece of paper". And, if you just can't seem to see why he feels the timing isn't right as being reasonable, I think you should prepare to leave.

there were soo many nights that i had the same question - why am i still waiting, what is he waiting for - and if he's not going to ask anytime soon, then should i stay with him? i think that sometimes guys just don't realize how much it upsets us. my whole family and his were asking him when he'd ask and there were so many times that i figured that i could just ask him to marry me and get it over with but i kind of wanted the proposal and all that. it ended up being VERY anti-climactic when he did propose - so i'm not sure if it's really worth stressing over.

"There was an article in the NY Times this week about how couples who marry before the age of 50% likely to divorce."

I really want to know the age. Is it 30?

wadewifey, who cares, it's a statistic. You can't live your life by a statistic.

everyone has to do what's feels right for their particular situation.

I have a lot of guy and girl friends who are in their mid 20s and say they can't even think about getting married right now. It's a big deal. It's not just, well, we're together and now we'll be together forever. There's more to it. All your friends see you as a married couple and don't want to do "single people stuff" anymore. Everyone expects you to grow up, buy a house and start popping out the kids. It's a lot to deal with.

Give him more time. He's just not ready for all that yet. Try not to think about it and just enjoy being with him.

why are you waiting? just ask him, it's 2008 not 1908. no matter he says you'll have your answer and you can move on. and if he says "not now" that's the same as no. no decision IS a decision, it's just the passive aggressive anzwer.

You can't nag someone into doing something like getting engaged if they're not ready for it. Why do you keep talking to him about it? I would be resent it if my boyfriend kept coming at me about something I said I wasn't ready for.

If the most important thing to you is getting engaged, then maybe you should think twice things. The most important thing should be that you're with this fantastic guy and everything's going great.

Well, I'm certain that most people are going to disagree with me on this. I think you need to move out of his place. I personally don't agree with people living together unmarried. I'm also thinking that he doesn't think the timing is right b/c he's feeling crowded. You both need your own space. How can you stop thinking about it/pressuring him if you see him everyday? All I'm saying is, take your time and enjoy life together from your own place. You'll enjoy the change. Don't use it as a threat. Games are for children. Just respectfully move out and tell him you think he should have his man space. Then you guys can actually date and not act like your married when your not. You'll appreciate yourselves and each other all the more.

I feel like this kind of question gets asked a lot on dearsugar, so maybe this is a common problem? Are there legions of young women out there who are trying to figure out ways to browbeat, convince, or otherwise finagle their boyfriends to propose? I honestly do not understand why anyone would feel that a loving, stable relationship is meaningless without a proposal.

I'm always reminded of Charlotte Lucas from Pride and Prejudice, who advises Jane Bennett to "secure" Mr. Bingley as soon as possible. Ladies, it doesn't work like that. Marriage guarantees nothing. Just because you sign the certificate and exchange rings doesn't mean you'll have a family, or that he'll be faithful, or that you'll even see your fifth anniversary, so please just enjoy what you have without nagging your boyfriend.

if you were in your 30s i'd understand but you're still young. pressuring a guy about marriage at this age is pretty rough on him. western society makes marriage out to be 'the end of your social life as a dude', 'ball and chain', so you can't really be surprised that many guys ward off marriage until later. if this is really something you are set on, make a deadline, if it doesn't happen by a certain time, then it's over.

i mean if it's really that important you'll be willing to leave him right?

see what i'm saying? the whole 'idea' of marriage becomes even more important than the person you're in the relationship with! i guess my point is you're over-obsessing about one thing and it might make him scared to even ask you- what if he doesn't ask you creatively enough, what if it's not perfect? what if it changes things? he doesn't want his guy-dom to end. guys get insecure.
you will, if you haven't already, create this whole bad feeling about the whole event by nagging. seriously, reevaluate and concentrate on a hobby. that way, if it comes, it will come when you least expect it. that's how it's supposed to be!

Th article in the NY Times I referred to above says the age is 25. Sorry I left that out.

Wait. Plain and simple. If you love him and being with him, it shouldn't matter. It seems like you've made it pretty clear what you want. BUT BUT BUT, if you feel that you can't wait anymore, then he's not really "the one" because if he is, you wouldn't mind waiting.

I see absolutely nothing wrong with telling him that marriage is something that is important to you and that you want to be engaged within the next X months. But once those words escape your mouth, you have to be ready to back them up by leaving if it doesn't happen.

Honestly, you have nothing to lose. If this guy isn't really into you and he's hedging his bets, better to know in 6 months than in 3 more years. Sometimes people have to be put on the spot or they'll just keep dragging things along because it's easier to!

Good luck.

three years really isn't that long :S

I agree 100% with popgoestheworld. I should also add that having been in this situation, you need to just live day to day and make sure that your relationship is the best it can be (on your end) and that you face and solve problems as they come up. Treat it like a successful marriage, in other words, and you'll reap what you sow. I didn't, and I regret it.

I too could have written this post, only the reason we aren't engaged is we are both finishing graduate school in different locations at the moment. However, we've been together three years and things are great. It really upsets me when I read comments like "If he hasn't proposed after 2 years he isn't going to." There are many different kinds of people in this world. Some men are commitmentphobes, many are actually eager to settle down and some fall in between. While I do believe that both men and women can quickly decide whether they are with someone that they think they could marry someday, I really don't believe that proposals happen within that short of a time frame or not at all. It doesn't say anything about you or your relationship, it just means he's not ready. Many men still feel they need to have certain things like career and finances in order before proposing, and if you two are still in your 20s he may just not be ready. If he says he wants to be with you and the time isn't right, just trust him. Rushing him won't help and if you let things progress naturally it will turn out ok. Good luck!

My friend is in exactly this position. She is 25 and they have been dating for 4 1/2 years. They also now live together. She is desperate to get married and he keeps saying he is not ready and wants to get his career all settled first. But why does he have to get his career all settled first? Why can't they be married while he figures things out? It's not like he has no money. I never understand that logic.

Also, she has a legit reason. She wants a lot of kids and she says the chances of birth defects really start to increase after the woman is 30. So she wants to start having kids BEFORE then. All those women who get married in their mid-30s and wait until they are 40 or whatever to have kids are really taking a chance.

And you know what? My mom was 40 when my sister was born (luckily no birth defects). But she is going to be 58 when my sister goes to college and 62 by the time she gets out (if she graduates in 4 years and doesn't go to grad school). My mom wants to retire around then but there is no way she will be able to do that with the cost of college. So there's another reason to get married and have kids in your 20s.

None of this is helping the OP. I'm sorry, but a bunch of other people gave some good advice.

Wow there is a lot of different advice here...

My only thing to add is that I really hate the idea of a woman sitting around praying her bf will propose to her. Is this 1950 or something? The thing is, if one of you isn't ready, there isn't much you can do. You don't want to force the other person, or there will be a ton of resentment. Remember: every time a man pops the question, it is a sort of ultimatum. There is no reason a woman can't do the same thing. However, you already know he doesn't feel ready, so if you want to go ahead with it, you need to figure out why. Is it finances? Then work on your finances, etc. If there is no good reason, then why not split. You don't need to sit around pining for him to marry you.

That being said, IMO no reason to get married in your 20's!

Amanda- I just read your post. Your sister can take out college loans, many of us do. And 62 is seriously not that old today, I was raised by my grandparents, life doesn't end at 50, I promise!

But I do agree that the finances thing can only be used up to a certain point, I mean getting married when you have huge credit card debt, or no assets or income is a bad idea. But beyond that, I don't get that reasoning either. My friend is waiting desperately for her bf to propose to her, they have lived together for 3 years, own their home, have great salaries, and are buying an investment property together. He keeps saying that he just wants to wait until their finances are more settled. They have no debt, and are investing in real estate together! I would be so over that.

I'm with snowbunny11 here. My Mom was 45 when I was born and I have a younger sister! Age doesn't mean anything in the big picture. I wasn't even vaguely aware that my parents were so much older than my friends parents until I hit around 24. And age is NOT a good argument to nag someone into doing someone they obviously don't want to do.

Marci, I'm not saying you should use age to nag someone into doing something. I'm just saying it's something women need to consider. My sister was always complaining that our parents never played with her; it's because they were older and exhausted when they got home from work so they didn't end up playing with her as much as they did when I was a kid.

Yes, I know my sister can take out loans, but considering my college experience cost $150,000 (with help from my parents, my parents taking out loans, me taking out loans, and some of my own money...and no financial aid), if her college costs that much, she definitely won't be able to pay for it all herself.

Oh, and mid-20s is not too young to be getting married, especially if you have been together for three years and live together. I got married earlier this year at 25. I was just at my friend's wedding this weekend. Four weddings last year. Two the two years before that. Basically every one of my friends who is in a relationship (except the one mentioned before who wants to get engaged) is now married. Sure, all of them may not last, but I bet most of them will. Why wait until your 30s if you are already with the person you want to be with?

so mid twenties is a good age range for getting married... if all of our friends are getting married?

who i imagined myself marrying when i was in my twenties (twice, yes i was engaged twice in my 20's)... changed as i became older and YES WISER and even tho i'm not a day over 28 (and will never been)... i think the biggest part of all of this... is if youre ANXIOUSLY WAITING... then you know in your heart it's not happening the way you want it to. if you have to have a "talk" about it, then something isn't right. besides there's nothing a man likes LESS than a "talk about the relationship and where it's going" the bottom line is he knows what you want... and he's not READY... that's him putting himself and his feelings first. he's not saying maybe in 6 months, he's sayin i'm not ready. and y'know what that's not who you'll want to be w/when you're in your "mid twenty eights".... you want the guy who puts YOU and YOUR FEELINGS FIRST... that's who "the one" is.

and while some kids complain that their ancient parents were too old and too tired from working to play with them... some children benefit from the fact that their OLD and TIRED parents were READY for them... financially and mentally... i could NEVER have been able to handle all that i'm handling now w/my son... and my husband (the third ring was the charm) and my job... if i wasnt who i am... NOW... and who you are in your twenties and who you are in your mid-twenty-eights are very different people.

and i think meloD is completely right... enjoy your OWN LIFE from your own place... that's huge!

Well, Roxtarchic, I think the point is that the poster IS ready. It's just that her boyfriend isn't. And if you never have a talk about where your relationship is going, then you are just at a standstill. What is the point of that?

And if you never talk about marriage before the guy proposes (or the girl, if you want to be all feminist about that), then he is just doing it blindly and has no idea if she will say yes or no. My husband was completely sure that I would say yes before he proposed (and yet he was still terrified I would say no).

I'm not saying you should get married just because all your friends are getting married; I'm just saying all my friends my age are getting married because they are ready and don't want to wait.

Seriously, I hated dating. Never found ANY enjoyment in it. So the day I started dating my best friend was the best day in the world (until my wedding). We already knew we got along well and didn't have to deal with the whole "getting-to-know-you" thing (which I know some people actually enjoy). So we knew we would make it. We already waited eight years to start dating; why wait eight more to get married?

I'm with princess and wilds. You're basically telling my exact same story, too.

Except we were engaged for 3 years and then never did it. I dunno girl, sometimes I think people get married just because they feel like it is something they're 'scheduled' to do, i.e. they were together at a certain point in their life etc.

My best advice (altho I know it is easier said than done), is to move out, and try to fill as much of your time without him as possible, just in case he never does pop the question. Then at least you will have a support group built and a life outside of him. Just in case. This would also help you be patient, too, because you would be preoccupied with other things. So it could kinda kill 2 birds w/ one stone.

I agree that if you're ready... dont wait... (not many people are lucky enought to know like that) we got engaged & were married in 6 months (we lived together for about 5 months but yeah i knew when we met). And when I say... having the "talk"... i'm more of the mind that if it's moving and progressing forward, you dont HAVE to talk about it... if you DO have to have the "talk" then there's something wrong, it's not moving... it's not progressing. and i dont mean the future and what we want from it were never discussed... it was just never a sit down "where is this going" we knew where it was going right from the start...

i also think... for some people 25 is young to be pushing engagement or worrying about waiting it out, and i say that because it would have been for me. not because i think it's too young for everyone...

i just think a guy saying "i'm not ready" w/out saying... lets talk more about it at the end of the year when i get my bonus, or around our anniversary... or... when i find my courage (cause i hate to say it, that's the feeling i get w/this)...

i also think living on your own and supporting yourself is a great way to figure out if he's worth waiting for in the first place.

Look, as far as the children thing.... ladies, let's not get ahead of ourselves. As a 29-year-old coming out of a longterm relationship that I was positive would lead to marriage, of COURSE I'm heartbroken that I may not be having kids in the next couple of years. But seriously? having them with the wrong person is 1 million times worse! children are great - I'm dying to have several! - but it all comes down to who you choose as a partner, and I POORLY choose partners in my 20s. So despite the scary "biological clock" business, I'm quite happy that life has led me here and to a better place - without children from a broken or unhappy marriage!!

I'm also waiting... trying to be as patient as I can! We talk about our wedding and buying a house and getting a puppy all the time! I wasn't going to move in with him until we got engaged but he moved here from another state for me and it just kinda fell into place and is going great. Now I'm even more excited and just want it to happen already. We are renting now and I keep telling him I don't want to actually go look at houses until we are engaged bc i just need that further commitment. We have shopped for rings and I found the perfect one (http://www.markschneiderdesign.com/detail.asp?recid=18&ringname=Fantasy). I know he is just saving money but I'm going crazy! It doesn't help that my best friend is planning her wedding now and I hear about it all the time. I'm trying not to nag but I feel as though its the next step in beginning our life together and I cant just forget about it or skip it! So I guess just hold tight and know that you are not alone! If he is the one it will happen... hopefully right haha!

Why don't YOU propose marraige to HIM? Women are allowed to do that, you know. My mom did.

I guess I am not really understanding why you would want to marry someone who doesn't want to marry you, or isn't ready to get married? If marriage is your ultimate goal, then find someone who wants that too. But I don't understand why marriage is such a big deal to so many women. If you main priority is being with the man you love, then be with him. But if you feel that you must get married by a certain age, then find someone who wants that too. But ask yourself, is getting married more important to you than being with the man that you love? Because if you issue an ultimatum, be prepared to follow through on it if he doesn't propose by your deadline.

But honestly, what's your rush? You are still young, and as someone else mentioned, the younger that you get married, the higher the chance of divorce. I wouldn't propose to him, if I were you. Because if he has already told you that he is not ready, then he might say no. Or, even worse he might say yes out of guilt but not really be ready. I really don't understand what the big deal is with being married. It's not going to change your relationship, except that you have to pay for an expensive wedding. I don't understand why so many women have some ridiculous schedule set up in their head about the specific age they must be married by and have kids by. Why not just enjoy life and take things as they come?

RE: AmandaKrups- I have never read that having kids after 30 increases the chance of birth defects, I don't think that that is true. However, I know that after 35, this is the case and also a woman's fertility rate start to drop. Also, after 35, the rate of down's syndrome increases for each year. But I don't think this is even an issue for the OP, as she did not mention children and she is only in her mid twenties.

Or you could be close to forty (twenty eight) have no problems getting pregnant (being surprised by it in fact) have a great pregnancy and then have a wonderful baby w/out downs syndrome... or any birth defects at all... i think it's so disheartening to hear all of this "after thirty your chances drop" pressure.... it's not necessarily the case. your genetic history and your overall health play a bigger part in your fertility and ability to deliver a healthy baby than your age. (stressing over a ring can't be good for that btw)

and yogurt... you've shopped for rings, i really don't think youre in the same situation as the original poster.... i also think it's smart (or prudent or whatever the word is i'm lookin for) that you decided to wait to look at houses until you're engaged... good luck! and the more you help your friend w/her wedding... the more you'll be prepared when it comes to planning yours. every wedding i went to before really planning ours... i would remember... OH i really liked that... or oh, i didnt like that so much... totally helps when you have a really good idea what you want and what you dont!

Janine you are correct that 35 qualifies a woman as "advanced maternal age" in terms of their risk factors.

But Amanda is kind of right as well that in general the older the mother, the more increased risks. These risks don't just start at 35. BUT, something like Down Syndrome, the risks are about 1/1000 under 30, 1/900 at 30, but once you reach 35 it's 1/400. At 40, it's 1/100. In other words the risk becomes much much greater as age increases.

Not to bring politics into the mix, but at 44, 1 in 35 babies are born with Down's so it is not too surprising to me that Palin's son has it.

25 and anxiously anticipating and engagement w/someone who's "not ready" vs 35 and worried about downs syndrome is a big leap...

roxtar, I agree she's a far, far cry from dealing with that problem. I just wanted to put some numbers out there to clear up possible misconceptions.