Why do people have issues with gay marriage? If you don't like gay marriages, don't get one, and stay away from the LGBT community. So much for a free country where people who are different aren't allowed to be happy.

Well said, ladychaos!

The ultra-Orthodox rabbi for whom I work even put it this way: he said that although he strongly opposes gay marriage on his own moral and religious grounds, even he doesn't understand why gay marriage should be banned by the secular government. A gay couple's marriage isn't going to break up a straight couple's marriage. I wish more people thought like that.

I agree!!! I don't understand how somone could support and amendment that discriminates against a certain type of people. It boggles my mind that people put so much effort and energy into supporting this ban.

an not and

Does anyone ever watch 30 days? They had an episode where a very conservative, catholic women (who was strictly opposed to gay marriage) come live with a gay, male couple who were raising 3 adopted kids. She had been a strong advocate for groups opposing a homosexuals right to adopt. Throughout the show, even though she got to know this family and see how well these children were cared for, she still would not even rationalize the possibility that being a homosexual parent is not harmful for a child. It was very disheartening to watch, seems this woman was clearly 2 cents short of a epiphany, and held so tight to her beliefs without acknowledging the reality of the situation.
Sorry kind of off subject, but I think it somehow relates to the overall mentality of people opposed to gay marriage...their unwillingness to budge, usually citing religious or moral beliefs.

There's a great saying: "Talking to someone who refuses to listen to reason is like administering medicine to a corpse." People who believe what they believe without reason will continue to do so because reason isn't involved, it's just a neanderthalic view of the world. Right v. Wrong.

I agree with all of you! Lovelie, I haven't watched the show you are talking about. Thanks for giving the recap!

if churches want to oppose gay marriage that should be fine - but a government ban is nothing short of discrimination. if we can classify crimes against homosexuals as hate crimes, why would we not see this as discrimination based on sexual orientation? it boggles the mind.

MartiniLush- No prob. However if you do plan on watching it, don't watch it when your in an extreme mood because it will definitely amplify your current mood. Kind of depressing.

YY- I agree. We are a nation that recognizes a strict wall between state and religion, so why should any political figure or any individual for that matter who is a citizen of the US, cite religious beliefs as their rationale for supporting a state ban on gay marriage? It is ok for everyone to have their beliefs, but when your beliefs start to step on the toes of others (like withholding fundmental right to marry) that is when it becomes a problem.

Just some food for thought -

28% of Americans think gay couples should be allowed civil unions
30% of Americans think gay couples should be allowed to marry
36% of Americans think there should be no legal recognition of gay couples

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/06/13/opinion/polls/main4180335.shtm...

As always, YY, you make a great point!

Hey cabaker didn't those same polls say Kerry was going to win the election? Meaning, those polls do not accurately express the opinions of the American people.

YY - you are right on.

Not sure if it is the summarized version printed here but I think the Chronicle was giving Obama the liberal benefit of the doubt, because no matter how you sugar coat it, at the end of the day he opposes gay marriage. I think that they were just trying to make the ultra liberals in the Bay Area feel a little better that they will be voting for Obama, even if he is likely to not help the gay marriage movement move forward.

Well Git, if you put no stock in any polls whatsoever, thats fine.

You’ve got me thinking, cabaker. When I’ve got a moment later on, I think I’ll try to look up the stats on how many people were in favor of/against interracial marriage when that ban was lifted. After all, that is another and similar issue of civil rights and equality. Even if it turns out that a larger percentage of people were against interracial marriage than were for it at the time, would that mean that the lifting of the ban against interracial marriage was wrong?

actually lovelie the lady was a Mormon . like they have any right to judge. I thought those were the people with tons of wives and kids.

I'm saying whats right or wrong, I'm just saying lets honestly look at what most people think because I think that making the assumption that being against gay marriage = ignorant and homophobic is not true. There's a myriad of reasons people are against it.

oops, I meant "I'm not saying..."

letsgetloud- Your right...oops..sorry guys. It was last week so my memory was a little fuzzy. Your absolutely right about their right to judge though. No ones perfect.

cab, I think it has been mentioned in other comments that there are many reasons that people oppose it, whether that be moral or religious or whatever. However, I think discriminating against a group of people is wrong, no matter WHAT reason is given as justification.

I see what you’re saying, cabaker, and I’m curious: what sorts of reasons do people have for opposing gay marriage that aren’t directly related to anti-gay feeling or religious-based anti-gay judgments? What rationale is there for denying civil unions to this group of American citizens?

(I’m not trying to be snarky here. I’m genuinely curious. It may be that there are reasonable arguments out there that I haven’t heard.)

(Ugh. Sorry if I'm not expressing myself clearly. My coffee hasn't kicked in yet.)

My point is that it may not be about discrimination, it might just be about how its being handled. Some people might think its important enough of an issue to be put to a vote amongst the American people, thats not discriminatory. Some people might think that its a state's choice to make, not the federal gov't (or the other way around even), again, not discriminatory. Some people might just hate that its being pushed on them by judges and not legislators, again, not discriminatory.

is there a tag on this thread?

try this link and re-hash some of the previous threads - http://www.citizensugar.com/tags/Gay+Marriage - I think that's the best way to get some ideas Jude without rehashing it all over again.

and while polls are obviously not fool proof, I think it would be silly to dismiss ALL POLLS because of an error. Even if the margin of error on the CBS poll was +/- 10 percent, that's still a pretty startling number, imo.

Jude I think theres a difference between marriage and civil unions. Some might say that civil unions are discriminatory, and some might say that it isn't if they are getting all the same rights as married couples.

I think poll shows that the majority of Americans want some kind of coverage for gay couples. Thats a very good thing! But then the question becomes is a compromise adequate or does it have to be marriage or nothing?

And I would NEVER think you were being snarky!!

"My point is that it may not be about discrimination, it might just be about how its being handled. Some people might think its important enough of an issue to be put to a vote amongst the American people, thats not discriminatory. Some people might think that its a state's choice to make, not the federal gov't (or the other way around even), again, not discriminatory. Some people might just hate that its being pushed on them by judges and not legislators, again, not discriminatory."

Good points as always, cabaker. But I do think that for most people, being bothered enough to oppose how something is "pushed on them" indicates an opposition to what's pushed on them in the first. (I'm excepting you, because you have a sophisticated grasp of American government that means that you would have a problem with something being pushed on you without having a problem with what's being promoted, just on principle )

And you can see how the lack of caffeine is affecting me--I was thinking "legally recognized marriage" when I typed "civil union" without taking into account that the two are different. Now I feel dumb.

Oh, and thanks, syako

Okay but what does that poll prove? Because only 30 percent believe that gays should be allowed to get married, we should go ahead with the ban? Marriage is something between two people who love each other and if they want to take their relationship to the next level how does that effect the rest of America?

i like jude's idea to see what the opinions were surrounding interracial marriage. that would be very interesting. this all boils down to religious and/or moral opinions about the gay lifestyle. there really is no other logical or legal reason to oppose gay marriage. and even if a majority of the public agrees with it - that does not mean it should affect the law. we live in a secular society.

If you took a poll back during civil war era time- I am sure 30% Americans would support marriage between races. I wouldn't use a poll as a reason to allow discrimination against a group . I would not be surprised if 50 years from now people were looking back at this time horrified at how backwards and discriminatory we were towards other fellow human beings.

Speaking of polls: In California, a recent Field Poll shows that 51% of voters are OPPOSED to the ban (ie supports gay marriage). And that's just a cross-section of the voting populace. I would guess that since Obama is now the Democratic nominee, he will bring out even more young people, and (here's another stat for you:) 78% of the younger generation (classified as 18-30), supports gay marriage.

As for the national polls, I honestly don't care what possible rationales people have for supporting a ban. To me, that's irrelevent. If churches don't want to perform gay marriages, that is absolutely their Constitutionally-given right, but to suppress the rights of others (rights the majority does enjoy), and use religious reasons for governmental policy, is downright Un-American.

PS "Don't Hate, vote NO on 8"
(The ban was assigned as Proposition 8 on California's November ballot.)

Regarding the above-mentioned documentary:

Please keep in mind that lumping all Mormons (i.e. LDS and fundamentalists) into one group and saying that they're the people with tons of wives and kids isn't correct or fair.

In fact, the LDS (The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints) long ago banned plural marriages. Also, they do not recognize the use of "Mormon" when applied to other Latter Day Saints groups (such as the people recently in the news).

I am sorry to get off-point, but it gets to me when I see such generalizations.

I really don't ever like to get into discussions about this topic with people just because it usually leads back to "what I believe." When discussing this, I don't think it matters what we believe individually. I look at this through a legal stance, so what I believe religiously/morally doesn't matter. If you read ths Constitution, specifically the 14th Amendment privileges and immunities clause, you'll find that the DOMA Act is clearly oblivious to this clause. That is what bothers me.

This attempt to amend the California Constitution touches on a couple of concerns for me. If passed we will have legislated discrimination into law. I've also always wondered that since some churches do fully accept gay marriage just like any other marriage does this act infringe on freedom of religion.

A recent poll has shown that a majority of Californians do not support legislating a ban these days. I am confident that marriage for homosexuals will stand as is come November.

Well, I took a quick check at the Gallop website for interracial marriages and polling and there is a table there showing answers to the question "Do you approve or disapprove of marriage between blacks and whites?" going back to 1958. (sorry, I realize that interracial marriages are more diverse than that but this was all I could find!)

1958 approve 4%, disapprove 94%
1968 approve 20% disapprove 73% (when the ban on interracial marriage was lifted)
2007 approve 77%, disapprove 17%

Here is the link for those interested:
http://www.gallup.com/poll/28417/Most-Americans-Approve-Interracial-Marr...

amybdk- I apologize, I didn't mean to lump mormons into a group. As you saw in my first post, I didn't even realize she was mormon. That really wasn't the point I was trying to make and I didn't mean to generalize or offend. I guess my point was that there is no perfect religion, and using religious beliefs to pass judgment on someone else's lifestyle is very ignorant.

Thanks, MartiniLush!

git - I think Cab's point with those poll numbers is that while here on Citizen we rah-rah gay marriage, that isn't necessarily the response of the entire nation. She was just showing that there are a majority who do not approve/agree.

In fact, it was in reference to the first 5-6 comments all in which stated, "how could anyone be against it"

(sorry cab if I've misrepresented you!)

No Sy, you're 100% right. I was just bringing some added facts to the conversation, that was my intention.

Because people are against something doesn't mean that it should be put into the constitution of any state. I bet in 50 years gay marriage will not be a problem. Going with what Jude C said, what if in 1958 their were constitution bans against interracial marriage when people believed that was immoral do you know how many people (including myself) would have not have that oppurtunity. I see the two as the same thing in a different era.

It's going to happen because it's a discriminatory practice. The only question is how many ignorant, homophobic people have to have their eyes opened before it happens. I'll also bet there was a poll in the 18th century that said owning slaves was a good thing too.

"Going with what Jude C said, what if in 1958 their were constitution bans against interracial marriage when people believed that was immoral do you know how many people (including myself) would have not have that oppurtunity. I see the two as the same thing in a different era."

simplyfab, my friend was just saying the same thing yesterday, and I agree.

This is just my opinion, but I don't really think gay marriage should be such a focal point during election years. Just sayin'. I personally am for it, because I think it's a *teensy* bit selfish that Jennifer Lopez can get married, what, 3 times, and two of my good guy friends who have been together since high school can't be granted the same rights...but yeah, don't really think it should be a huge focal point. IMO, YMMV and all that.

I don't think that polls matter in a situation like this.

As a side example, let's say the will of the people voted to ban handguns. You'd say "who gives a sh*t" right?

pop: nice!

The will of the people wouldn't vote that, actually 61% of americans said they supported the Supreme Courts decision and only 25% said they were against it.

So no worries!

Oh and in case anyone would actually like to READ my comments, I never said that because some people don't agree with it, it shouldn't happen.

cab, why would we READ things that conservatives write...