I HAVE NEVER SEEN ANYONE MAN OR WOMAN TREATED AS UNFAIRLY AS HILLARY WAS BY THE PRESS IN THIS CAMPAIGN ....

I don't think Hillary broke the glass ceiling. I am excited that some day an intelligent and ethical woman will run, and then the country will be ready.

this is more about the glass ceiling, so i was listening to Ronn Owens yesterday and because of Hilrods's campaign they had a guest in and the mentioned the the glass celing can be broken but the problem is that most women run into the sticky floor..as we get put into positions of support and get stuck there rather than being on the ladder to a leadership role. It really pissed me off cuz I am in a male dominated business and i know for a fact if I swung a stick I would be higher up...in the automotive industry it takes a minimum of twice the talent to be equal to a male counter part. So for Hillary even tho I wasn't supporting her campaign I support her as a woman who's talent and passion is over looked or misconstrued.

BTW UN cute picture, it reminds me of a picture with my dad.

I am really confused as to why so many of her supporters blame Obama for the way she was treated in the press. IMO, I think the majority of pundits actually exaggerated her chances to her benefit late in the game, because the extended primary coverage was good for their ratings. I also think that CNN was very favorable to her, and even Fox News. Especially after the 24/7 Wright coverage, I don't see how some people think that she was treated worse in the press than Obama. They have both taken a beat down, and they both have their dedicated cheerleaders (news stations). Really, each candidate has a news station (McCain=Fox, CNN=Clinton, MSN=Obama).

I think there were many moments that were clearly sexist, and that is VERY disappointing and needs to be addressed. But I also think there were some moments that weren't really sexist, but were blown up for drama. If you call a man a jerk, that word implies gender but it is acceptable. If you call someone a b*tch, that also implies gender, but is unacceptable unless it is said by Tina Fey. There were so many moments that fell on either side of the line, IMO. For example, I don't think a pundit saying that Hillary had Bill on a leash was sexist. It was just an insulting comment and tacky, but not sexist.

No matter what, hopefully boys clubs across America that enforce the glass ceiling will rethink their actions and get called on their improper behavior in the future.

She made it seem possibly that a woman could do it. I think if you asked the majority of Americans, including some HRC supporters, six years ago, if a woman could be elected president, I think the answer would have been no. Even while she was campaining, I heard other women say that it just wasn't possible. But she came further than anyone else in second place ever has. Because of her efforts, it will be easier for the first woman president to be elected.

I agree with what Jillness says about the media coverage. I think the blatantly sexist comments didn't impact her run but they did dissapoint and upset me. I can't speak for others, but whenever I saw a newscaster make a blatanty sexist remark, it made me, a loyal Obama supporter, want to rally to her defense. The "her voice reminds me of my nagging wife" comments were particulairly annoying.

Honestly, I don't think Hillary lost because of her gender. I think the primary reason she lost was that she approached the campaign with concrete policy judgments in hand, which gave the press, the public and the Obama camp something to criticize. Personally, I believe she did this because she's overly impressed with her own genius, but that's just my opinion. And however you characterize, she does not have a good public speaking voice.

Obama, on the other hand, has been mainly about feel-good oratory. He has a good voice, and people are drawn to his style.

As far as the latest outrageous pastoral remarks from Obama's sector, I don't believe Hillary thought she was entitled to the presidency because she's white. I believe she thought she was entitled to it because she's a Clinton, and because it "should" be karmic payback for all those years of putting up with Bill's shenanigans. Honestly, I can't blame her too much for that.

I think she broke the glass ceiling. That was one of my fav lines in her speech.
I expect Fox to be for McCain, but I am always surprised to see how much the MSNBC guys are biased in O's favor.
The media was sexist often when covering Hillary, but her supporters will shoot themselves in the foot by not voting. And I am related to two people in that category. I can understand that they love Hillary, but do they really want 1000 more years in Iraq.

Sadly, if she weren't the wife of an ex-President, I don't think she would have been a viable candidate. That's not to say that I don't wholeheartedly believe she's the best person for the job (she is), but the press would have marginalized her out of the picture.

I think she did break some glass ceilings, anytime a smart, strong woman can be seen 24 hours a day in the press, its a good thing. The more people are exposed to an idea, the more comfortable they become.

I think you're right rac. The total of her experience and qualifications lay in the observation of her husband. If she hadn't been married to him, she wouldn't be a state senator at this point.

"The total of her experience and qualifications lay in the observation of her husband."

That is NOT what Rac was saying.

I think she cracked it, and as a result it will be easier for the next woman. Since we don't know what will happen in November (by that I mean I'll believe America will elect a Mixed race President when I see it) she may run again. Anyway it will definitely be easier for the next woman. Hillary was better than her Campaign. It was a poorly run campaign. They never saw Obama coming. I don't know if it was overconfidence or entitlement. Her husband's blunders didn't help either. Geraldine Feraro centaintly didn't help. That woman actually implied that being a black man in America was an advantage. Lol. What's next the slave ships were cruise ships and the plantations were resorts. Honestly!

I started this thing expecting to vote for her in November cause I knew very little about Obama. Everybody I know didn't think Obama had a chance in hell of beating her. They thought by Super Tuesday she'd won. Even the press thought the same thing. They were taken aback just like everyone else. By the second leg of her campaign her tactics had totally turned me off. Sometimes I was infuriated, but I guess when you're losing you do whatever you have to do.

She has clearly reached the threshold and whether the class was shattered or not she should be nothing short of proud of her efforts and her accomplishments.

I agree that in one respect she has completely shattered the ceiling. People haven't judged her because she was a woman. They have judged her on her qualifications, which is what everyone should want.

Hillary lost the primary race for many reasons but her gender was not one of them. I didn't think Hillary or Obama had a chance of clinching the nomination. At the beginning of this I thought Edwards would win it. But the one person I knew who thought Obama would be the dem nominee was a 65 year old, white female in my office. She kept saying "believe me, Obama can do it."

I remember a number of years ago when a family friend was making the assertion that I should run for president and I laughed. 'A woman as president? America hasn't quite come that far yet.' I do think that sexism did come into play here.

Despite my qualms about her naked ambition, I've always been so impressed with her abilities and with how wonderful a role model she is. How inspiring it must be for Chelsea to have a mother like Hillary! I think she made it seem possible that a woman could be president someday soon. There's still a lot of people (men in particular) that say they will never vote for a woman, but get used to the idea, boys! The time is near.

Obama does not seem as passionate about his politics, which I think may have hurt Hillary. Hillary was almost shrill when she spoke.

Hillary just seems plastic and cold to most American's. At least she does to me. She approached her campaign in the wrong matter most times.

Reading all these comments that people thought that Clinton would clinch the campaign very early surprises me. From the beginning I've thought it would be tight between Obama and Clinton ... or that Obama would clinch it.

I'm an O-girl, so I have a hard time at this point giving her much. She really burned out my previous Hil-appreciation.

I think it is amazing that she ran and was a viable, legitimate candidate, and I think that that will have good effects. I think that did great things for women and their chance at this one big job. I think her run highlighted the casual sexism in our world much as Obama highlighted the ongoing racism - and started the dialog. The fact that we even enter a national dialog on whether a woman or a black man could/should be president shows we still see people as a part of this bigger gender/race than one great, competent person (how we judge white men, white man is neutral, no one asks if a white man can do the job).

I don't think she broke the ceiling, though she did take a hit at it. She wasn't a mill worker's daughter (ha) with no connections who started a grassroots support of her career through political prowess. She is a legacy. It just feels less earth shattering. But she did grab onto that lightening rod and hang on, pushing us closer to a day where a woman in charge is seen as normal.

When women are accepted into and enter the political world as themselves, and the men in their life are as sidelined as any first lady, and we don't ask if a woman should control the big red button, and we can nonchalantly discuss her politics before we discuss her pantsuits - that is a day I'll be proud and consider the ceiling broken.

I think she put a couple of cracks in the glass ceiling, but not so many that she should take credit for advancing women any great distance forward. She hitched her career and public persona to a man until she felt certain she had given herself enough traction to shoot forward. Women like Shirley Chisolm, Barbara Jordan, Pat Schroeder, Gloria Steinham and even Geraldine Ferraro deserve a great deal more credit than Hillary does. She's good at stepping in when the way already has been blazed and taking credit.

You all make such interesting points. She really did use her husband's success and appeal to better herself and her campaign. I don't trust her politically. She seems to have no ethics.

That's a very good point Stephley. When she first announced her candidacy, the media played it has it was her time, and she was the golden girl. I think that she had serious competition really irratated her.

Regarding her "unfair treatment" in the media: A year ago, she was the inevitable candidate. According to the media, she was so far ahead in the polls that she was virtually unstoppable. That doesn't sound like coverage biased against her.

sigh...really? Do we HAVE to beat this into the ground?

Of course Harmony. We have absolutely no empathy for you at all

Sorry about that. I think we should change the subject. How about we debate something lite, like global warming theory.

AL GORE created the internet!!!!!!

HF

It's really Global cooling NOT Global warming!!!!!

It's just a hot flash. Mother Earth is now hitting that "time" in her life.

Unfortunately, no! When you have a man walk up to you and say, "I don't think a woman could run the country, no one will take her seriously," there's still work to be done. When society as a whole still believes the only way a woman can make it in life is to marry a man with a great job and lots of money, there's still work to be done.

Brandy - Don't be discouraged because a small percentage of us males are stuck on stupid. I agree that there is still work to be done. Women will claim the presidency some day, just not in 2008. As long as Hillary isn't that woman, it could be done in 2012. Personally, I think a woman could've won in 2008. Hillary spent too much time focusing on how her sex was bringing her down, or how Barak's race was giving him a break (complaining about mistreatment in general). She allowed herself to be drawn away from the issues that matter to the people.

Well UD. Those were true statements. She tried her hardest to stick to the issues. The soundbites that you heard were all from interviews where she was being asked specific questions about Barack. Of course they always got rid of the question portion so it looked like she was just saying it. Her speeches were entirely about the issues but then I seriously doubt you ever listened to any of them in depth. The whole point of running for anything is to point out your strengths against your opponent's weaknesses. Saying that we were ready for a woman just not THIS woman is a complete cop-out. I don't believe you. Hillary got this far because of exactly who she is. No other woman would've even been taken seriously. Hillary was barely taken seriously by some. Jokes about PMS, cleavage, cooking, her sexuality, her looks, and her worthiness as a woman that were thrown around nonchalantly by the pundits, people on here, and the general public show how far we really have to go. Can you even IMAGINE if that many racial jokes were made nonchalantly on live television? There would be absolute outrage. Racism is a very real thing, but so is sexism and I wish people would at least acknowledge that it exists...instead of pretending that it only happened because it was THIS particular woman. No the glass ceiling is not gone, but Hillary took a BIG swing at it and like she said there IS light shining through. I for one would like to thank her for it and hope that next time a woman has the audacity to run for President that she will be treated with more respect.

I think only time will tell if Hilary broke the glass ceiling. IMO, she put a layer of cement on it and may have made it difficult (for at least a short time) for another woman to run for office and be take seriously. She was so negative in her campaign, the complete lack of organization of her team, and her crocodile tears has I think in a small way a barrier for young woman to truly get through that next door.

I don't think she lost because she is a woman, I think she lost because she was not the better candidate and she didn't have a good strategy. She really should have read the new rules better. In that sense I do think she has made strides, in that she lost as candidate and not as a woman. But her conduct during the campaign surly will have some repercussions for fellow women. Not sure what kind.

I didn't vote for or against anyone based on gender, so her being a woman didn't affect me... I'm sure it did others, but every aspect of a politician is judged by someone and people vote on whatever they vote on.

Has anyone been reading the XX Factor stuff on this at Slate? (like, http://www.slate.com/id/2192827 or http://www.slate.com/blogs/blogs/xxfactor/archive/2008/06/08/let-s-not-g... or anything)

I really liked a lot of the perspectives, and agreed with one article that pointed out how she ran as a 'man' (and it turned out that came across as politics as usual against a change platform), how she also used genderizing slurs against Obama (get out of the kitchen), and ultimately lost b/c she did not frame the issues around her but around him (attacking what she saw as his weaknesses rather than just talking about her strengths).

Yes, I'm sure she had lots of good things in her speeches and her followers got more, I got what the media put on. That is why candidates and press secretaries should know that the question doesn't matter, it is whatever soundbite you give. One glib reply in a week will haunt you....

I'm sorry HF, but I do think we'll beat this into the ground. I am kinda glad this thread is still going, I find different peoples perspectives on her and on the entire gender issue interesting.

If a male candidate had done the same things no one would bat an eyelash. It would be chalked up to business as usual. To say that this isn't historic just because you don't like her is ridiculous. Of course it's historic. Also, I do NOT think that she lost because she's a woman. I'm just pointing out things that this country still needs to work on.

I think that was the problem - she gave us business as usual.

I do think it was historic, b/c it always pissed me off that anyone that was a woman or a minority was immediately written off as a reject from the announcement of their candidacy. This year was amazing and defied expectations, we're just not through it yet.

"I do think it was historic, b/c it always pissed me off that anyone that was a woman or a minority was immediately written off as a reject from the announcement of their candidacy. This year was amazing and defied expectations, we're just not through it yet."

I agree Meg...and now I'm going to take a few days off from all this. I'm drained. Cheers!

HF - I have to disagree with you. There are many women I would've voted for. So far, they have chosen not to run. There are also other black men that I would've voted for that have not run. Hillary has not done anything that I have agreed with. I don't understand how a person who lived had never lived in New York could suddenly be on the ballot as a representative from NY. She isn't ethical, in either her actions or her words.

The only reason she lost is because this country is more sexists than it is racist.

boy, what a great generalization. That must mean McCain is going to be the next president.

I don't think she has broken the ceiling because Hillary Clinton seems to me almost masculine. She reminds me of the scene in Macbeth where Lady Macbeth says "unsex-me" as she tries to cast off the shackles of feminine wiles in her quest to gain ultimate power. Ok, that might be a bit harsh, but I just think we can't consider the glass ceiling broken until we no longer have to choose between power and femininity. I think people like Kelly Ripa or Katie Couric are better examples of ceiling breakers.