Based on the comments on the other thread, it doesnt seem like anyone is happy with this..

If you're happy and you know it, clap your hands and comment!!

All I know is that this coming Tuesday in the Minneapolis/St. Paul area, there is a shiite storm in the making. We have both the Republican convention and Obama slated to be in town. Couple this with the fact that our illustrius governor (R) is allowing bars to stay open until 4 AM to accommodate convention-goers. Stay off the roads, people!

How embarrassing were those Clinton supporters? Geez, it doesn't even matter what side your on we must have some kind of respect as democrats and Americans period! Do people not realize the world is watching? Can't wait to see the HBO redo of this in two years. How come people aren't this upset over the war?

It was clearly stated BEFORE the primaries that if the states moved their primaries up, the votes wouldn't count. If I were a citizen in Michigan or Florida, I would be protesting my state government (or would have done so when the date was moved....before the primary) rather than now that the race is drawing to a close.

It isn't the democratic party that has gotten in the way of fairness, it's the state governments of Michigan and Florida.

The thought of using all delegates (with full votes) from Michigan was ABSURD, especially because Obama wasn't on the ballot (as Hillary shouldn't have been either).

I've seen Dick Morris on Fox News say that he thinks Hillary is staying in this to tear apart the DNC and Obama so that McCain will win and she can run in 2012.... any thoughts?

Dick Morris is kind of Satanic, but it takes one to know one so I wouldn't rule out the possibility. We've never seen Hillary so totally thwarted before - I'm not sure she has been.

This whole process easily has the potential to disenchant all of the younger people who were amped for this election cycle. I am hardly young and this is getting on my nerves. Half-votes? I would be interested in finding out if during any electoral cycle is such a compromise was reached. Overall it seems like the will of the people and what we need as citizens is getting lost in ego-tripping and power plays.

How disappointing.

its insane how much he hates hillary clinton, it makes me wonder if they had a little love thang during the clinton administraton. anyhoo, i think that hillary is fighting on because she truly believes she is better than obama, the whole thing makes me feel kinda embarrassed for her. she truly thought she had it and lo and behold the new guy from chicago beat her. whoda thunk it. i do think she will run in 2012 but she has burned her bridges with the dnc and they will never back her up. its truly a mess at this point.

dawson-this never should of happened, the florida and michigan legislatures never should of allowed this to happen. they were given ample opportunity to follow the rules and they chose not to. they chose not to have the democrats of those states to be rendered null and void, blame those jackasses not the political process.

Cab you're being a trouble maker tonight.

I won't bother defending Hillary. I can see it would be pointless on this thread. I do have two points though.

1) It's not the voters fault that their state politicians made really bad decisions. I can see why they're angry.

2) If the situation was reversed and Hillary was the one with the SLIGHT lead there would be thousands of Obama supporters chaining themselves to the building singing songs while tears rolled down their cheeks. To imply that it is only Hillary's supporters that would act this way is stupid AND insulting.

Florida and Michigan didn't think the race would be tight enough that they would matter whether they waited or not, so why not move up their primaries and at least get themselves in the press? They were wrong, and now they're bitter because their scheme backfired in the most dramatic of ways. With all of Florida's previous voting-related shenanigans, its citizens should insist on having their elections observed (like a third world country's).

Oh, and it's incredibly egregious that Hillary gets the (half) delegates from a primary so illegitimate that Obama wasn't even on the ballot. How can we all not be infuriated?!

I'm assuming you're talking about Michigan nadise. Obama's name WAS on the ballot in Florida. His argument is that he didn't campaign in that state.

This whole thing is so ridiculous. When Hilary thought she was winning she's on tape stating how Michigan and Florida didn't count anyway. She like all the other candidates, agreed BEFOREHAND that the states would not count if they moved their primaries. As soon as Obama mounted a real chanlenge to her, she started singing a different tune. All of a sudden now she does not want those states disenfranchised. She and her Husband have been just awful to Obama. The reason they have behaved so appallingly is because they know they can get away with it. Had the situation been reversed, can you imagine Obama behaving toward Hilary the way she and Her husband have been behaving toward him.? He'd have been Lynched by the press & the DNC. I voted for her husband twice & defended them thru all their Monica nonsense. However I'm beginning to see them in a whole new light.

Hillary clinton is a whiny baby! She didnt care about Michigan or Florida when she seemed like she thought she could win. When she realized she couldnt she turned it into a thing about the people being heard. But she doesnt care, all she cares about is herself, if she cared about unity and the party, she would have told her supporters to stay away from this event, because they totally embarrassed the democratic party. Obama, before the event happened told his supporters to stay away because he knew the trouble it could cause. Hilary felt she should win, just because she was the first lady, but this campaign just shows it is more than status that determines this nomination for the democrat (not neccesarily the republicans). Hilary should be thankful she got delegates at all out of michigan because Obama's name wasnt on the ballot, and the election was supposed to be non-binding in Michigan and Florida (unfortunately for the voters there) but she is lucky any delegates were counted. I think that it is ridiculous that she screams and kicks and is totally selfish, we need to focus on the general election and there is no way, mathematically, she can win. I am a woman, and i do not think that is the reason she is not our nominee. she needs to stop with the sexist excuses, and face up to the fact she is not a capable presidential nominee, and her behavior perpuates the stereotype of women being emotional and unstable!

by the way harmonyfrance, Obama is levelheaded, he foresaw the unruly protestors and asked his supporters to stay home to keep from the chaos from happening, Hilary did not. I dont want to seem as a Hilary hater, because i was thinking about voting for her, but she has demonstrated un-presidnetial behavior, and has proved that she is just as bad as Bush and could resort to anything.

Here we go again. "Hanging chads" and all the requisite bullsh*t that will follow.

there is no reason for that. this issue is formally resolved, and the superdelegates will follow.

Can I have some of what you are smoking, alcook?

i don't know what you mean. its only logical.

first of all no one campaigned in either of the states so the excuse that obama is mad because he didnt campaign in the states is bogus. second obama could of put his name on the michigan ballot and he chose not to, his bad. third, hillary lost four delegates so pissing and moaning about obama only getting half but vilifying hillary is ridiculous. fourth, if it were up to me i would stuck with the rules and would of told michigan and florida, hopefully you learned your lesson, better luck next time.

exactly, flutterpie i totally agree!

Obama, shouldn't have taken his name off, you're right flutterpie, but both states were told their delegates would not have been counted, so everyone should be grateful! especially the florida and michigan voters.

Glad to see that you have some online friends, alcook!

i'm not quite sure why you are getting so defensive and what not , Fuzzles, if you have no rebuttle or points or evidence against my points then why are you still posting. Im confused by your comments.

Well the outcome didn't really affect him that much did it? She was the one who had something to gain from it...not him. I don't think that we can assume what Obama would or wouldn't have done had he been in Hillary's place. That's all I'm saying. I said it in a rather snarky way...but that's what I meant.

from what i have seen today and from what i have learned about his political strategies in chicago, he would done the exact same thing. the fact that i cannot think of a single politican in the democratic party who wouldnt of done this sickens me, which is why i move to florida im reregistering as independent. im done calling myself a democrat.

"First of all no one campaigned in either of the states so the excuse that obama is mad because he didnt campaign in the states is bogus. second obama could of put his name on the michigan ballot and he chose not to, his bad. third, hillary lost four delegates so pissing and moaning about obama only getting half but vilifying hillary is ridiculous. fourth, if it were up to me i would stuck with the rules and would of told michigan and florida, hopefully you learned your lesson, better luck next time."

I agree with this ENTIRE statement flutter.

I don't think any of the delegates from FL and MI should count (they knew the consequences of moving the date and the candidates knew/agreed the votes would not be counted), but I think this is the fairest decision they could make based on the tension between the supporters of both people.

Democrats coming together depends on the candidates and if they can get their supporters to stand down and see the bigger picture. It also depends on if Obama wraps up the nomination and if Hilliary continues on and takes it to the convention in August, then only god knows what will happen.

thanks for the clarification, harmonyfrance. it didnt affect him at all. Something about the way Hilary has been running the race has left me with a bad taste in my mouth. I think Bill Clinton was a good president, but i am doubtful about Hilary's capablitities and i wonder what her motive really is fighting this long, without a realistic chance to win. I know that being in Washington and politics can jade those who have large aspirations, you know?

to be honest i dont think that the only huge difference between hillary and obama is the war. so if one isnt qualified than i dont think the other is qualified. it irritates me that hillary reserved the right to go to the creditentials committee, i mean ickes and bill clinton both voted to strip michigan and florida of their votes. how stupid isnt to go them and say ummm we changed our minds?

it is the nature of politics. we want these people to represent us, but we have to remember they are humans in their own rights and have goal and aspirations for themselves. we have to judge what we think will be right, from their words and actions, and what they stand for. And pandering to each state and each group say a great deal about the candidates. John McCain is our opponent now, and the democratic party needs to focus on that, and realize they belong to the same party.

I honestly believe that she and her supporters (and there are a lot of us) think she will make the best president. That's why I think she's continuing and that's why her supporters continue to support her. That is IMO, but I don't see her as the evil creature that many people do. I see her as a politician like any other (including Obama).

thats what i mean by pander, hilary will change her mind like she changes her undergarments! however it suits her best. she says michigan and florida wont count, when she thinks she's ahead, then when she thinks she needs it, she changes her mind. i dont know. i study the political system for my degree. all i know is politics and politicans are so flawed!

i agree al, but i truly think that the party has handed the presidency to mccain. he is liberal enough for the middle and conservative enough for the right, couple that with a fractured party, he has a slam dunk.

i thought she would be good, but i think to myself, how can she change our healthcare system if she is so tied to the pharamaceutical companies. if we want to focus on prevention and what not? i think hilary clinton 8 years ago would be a better candidate then the hilary we have now. only my personal opinion.

The party certainly has weakened itself, but in our favor, McCain keeps making stupid slips of the tongue and he's got a rotten temper - I think he underestimates how calm and reasonable he can make Obama look.

i think mccain is bordering on senile. he cannot even get the situation in iraq straight! its scary someone of his age and mental standing could be nominated president. I also think that the democrats and the media have not been given the chance to pick McCain's flaws apart, as they have been focusing on this democratic fight. For the record, i have never been one to say that hilary should get out of the race, she has fought hard, but at this time, i hope when the nominee has the delegates, it will all come to an end.

totally agree~ stephley. the party just needs the chance!

The republicans are irrelevant at this point. The reason why there is so much turmoil in the democratic party is because whomever emerges from this will most likely be the next president. So what I think we're watching is a battle to see which ideology American politics take in this new century: Obama idealism or Clinton pragmatism. For me, I prefer pragmatism, but America is in the toilet right now because of the neo-cons and people just want to believe in something good.

you speak the truth

We floridians did protest the move in primaries...didn't make a difference.

what evidence do we have of mccain's temper? i keep hearing about it but no one ever provides any evidence...

as for the senile comment, thats unbelievably silly so there's no reason to disucss it.

but i do agree that if the Dems can't win this one, they need to pack the party in... Republicans have handed it to them on a platter with a bow, and yet we're the ones still looking good after this mess!!

Get it together people!!

I think it takes effort to miss stories about McCain's temper, but here's a sample list - significant because most of the incidents involve Senate colleagues. This is in addition to calling his wife a trollop and worse in front of reporters in the '90s:

Defending His Amnesty Bill, Sen. McCain Lost His Temper And “Screamed, ‘F*ck You!’ At Texas Sen. John Cornyn” (R-TX). “...In a heated dispute over immigration-law overhaul, McCain screamed, ‘F— you!’ at Cornyn, who had been raising concerns about the legislation. ‘This is chickens—stuff,’ McCain snapped at Cornyn. ‘You’ve always been against this bill, and you’re just trying to derail it.’” (Charles Hurt, “Raising McCain,” New York Post, 5/19/07)

Sen. McCain Repeatedly Called Sen. Pete Domenici (R-NM) An “A**hole”, A Republican senator tells this story: at a GOP meeting last fall, McCain erupted out of the blue at the respected Budget Committee chairman, Pete Domenici, saying, ‘Only an a–hole would put together a budget like this.’ Offended, Domenici stood up and gave a dignified, restrained speech about how in all his years in the Senate, through many heated debates, no one had ever called him that... But McCain went on: ‘I wouldn’t call you an a–hole unless you really were an a–hole.’ The Republican senator witnessing the scene had considered supporting McCain for president, but changed his mind. ‘I decided,’ the senator told Newsweek, ‘I didn’t want this guy anywhere near a trigger.’” (Evan Thomas, et al., “Senator Hothead,” Newsweek, 2/21/00)

Sen. McCain Had A Heated Exchange With Sen. Charles Grassley (R-IA) And Called Him A “F*cking Jerk.” “Are you calling me stupid?’ Sen. Chuck Grassley once inquired during a debate with McCain over the fate of the Vietnam MIAs, according to a source who was present. ‘No,’ replied McCain, ‘I’m calling you a f—ing jerk!’ (Grassley and McCain had no comment.)” (Evan Thomas, et al., “Senator Hothead,” Newsweek, 2/21/00)

In 1995, Sen. McCain Had A “Scuffle” With 92-Year-Old Sen. Strom Thurmond (R-SC) On The Senate Floor. “In January 1995, McCain was midway through an opening statement at a Senate Armed Services Committee hearing when chairman Strom Thurmond asked, ‘Is the senator about through?’ McCain glared at Thurmond, thanked him for his ‘courtesy’ (translation: buzz off), and continued on. McCain later confronted Thurmond on the Senate floor. A scuffle ensued, and the two didn’t part friends.” (Harry Jaffe, “Senator Hothead,” The Washingtonian, 2/97)

Celebrating His First Senate Election In 1986, Sen. McCain Screamed At And Harassed A Young Republican Volunteer. “It was election night 1986, and John McCain had just been elected to the U.S. Senate for the first time. Even so, he was not in a good mood. McCain was yelling at the top of his lungs and poking the chest of a young Republican volunteer who had set up a lectern that was too tall for the 5-foot-9 politician to be seen to advantage, according to a witness to the outburst. ‘You’d have to stick cotton in your ears not to hear it. He (McCain) was screaming at him, and he was red in the face. It wasn’t right, and I was very upset at him.’” (Kris Mayes and Charles Kelly, “Stories Surface On Senator’s Demeanor,” The Arizona Republic, 11/5/99)

I understand the voters being fustrated by being disenfranchised but I think they are wrong to blame the democrats. Their states broke the rules. I actually kind of wish the Dems had grown a pair, stood by what they decided last year and said "sorry, you broke the rules. you pay the price." I think these states are lucky to have any representation at the convention at all. Michigan should have been striped at least because it was the dems in Michigan who made the decision to move up. At least in Florida they had the excuse of being under republican influence.

All those who thought the rules comittee were going to restore the delegates at 100% based on the primaries that were held, are out of thier minds. That would have been a true travesty. They were beauty contest primaries. Neither canidate campaigned there or ran ads there. Many voters who would have come out probably stayed home. Yes, Florida had a record turn out but there was also a property tax issue on the ballot and property tax issues garantee high turn outs. In Michigan, to only award HRC delegates at 100% when she was the only one on the ballot would have handed her the nomination. The committee was obviously not going to make a decision that changed the outcome of the voting in the other 48 states. Plus, to award both states representatives at 100% would have made the party seem even more weak and out of control than it already does.

Harmony, (off topic) no Kate W? I had to look twice at your name to make sure you were who I thought you were.

Stephley, this is where your McCain scrap booking has really paid off.

Cab - I know how you like military guys:

"I like McCain. I respect McCain. But I am a little worried by his knee-jerk response factor," said retired Maj. Gen. Paul Eaton, who was in charge of training the Iraqi military from 2003 to 2004 and is now campaigning for Clinton. "I think it is a little scary. I think this guy's first reactions are not necessarily the best reactions. I believe that he acts on impulse."

"I studied leadership for a long time during 32 years in the military," said retired Air Force Maj. Gen. Scott Gration, a one-time Republican who is supporting Obama. "It is all about character. Who can motivate willing followers? Who has the vision? Who can inspire people?" Gration asked. "I have tremendous respect for John McCain, but I would not follow him."

"One of the things the senior military would like to see when they go visit the president is a kind of consistency, a kind of reliability," explained retired Gen. Merrill McPeak, a former Republican, former chief of staff of the Air Force and former fighter pilot who flew 285 combat missions. McPeak said his perception is that Obama is "not that up when he is up and not that down when he is down. He is kind of a steady Eddie. This is a very important feature," McPeak said. On the other hand, he said, "McCain has got a reputation for being a little volatile." McPeak is campaigning for Obama.

G'morning Raci.

stephlry don't forget the fight McCain was involved in. I'll try to find the name of the law maker he scuffled with.

Gramps is a feisty bugger.