Hard to say. I'm a Christian and I pray but I if I had a sick daughter escpecially with something as serious as Diabetes I would at least take her to the Doctor or Hospital. I have faith in GOD but sometimes you have to do your part too to save/help your daughter. That's why GOD made doctors.

Those parents should be thrown in Jail! They have a right to practice their faith however, that right is superseded by their responsibility to care for their child and that means seeking medical help if needed. The State doesn't have a right to dictate your faith , but the State has a right and collective responsibility to prevent harm.

Well put Shop!

That's just awful! I completely agree with you onabanana!

As a parent, you have a responsibility to seek medical care for your child. They knew she was sick, even if they didn't realize how seriously. No matter how much you believe in God and the power of prayer, as parents you should be responsible for your child's wellbeing. They can pray all they want to, but they still should have taken her to a doctor.

This one is really hard for me too. But my personal belief is that God helps those that help themselves... and they had a reponsiblility to their daughter.

This completely breaks my heart. As a parent you are responsible for the well being of your child. Clearly, these parents suffered some confusion about body and spirit. And a child was lost because of it. I can't even fathom it.

so if a scientoligist's kid committed suicide because his parents wouldn't let him seek mental health treatment they should go to jail?

or say an amish family doesn't give their child with cancer chemo because they don't believe in modern technology they should be thrown in jail?

it's a fine line and if we cross it things could get ugly

Completely in agreement with syako. As much as it's a tragedy, throwing them in jail is going to cause a sh*tstorm. And in this case, it's not an example of that person deserving punishment to think about what they've done. I'm sure this decision is going to haunt them for the rest of their lives.

I'm all for freedom of religion, and if you're an adult, know you're sick, and choose not to seek medical attention that could save your life, that's up to you. But it's heinous not to seek medical attention for your 11-year-old child. Essentially, they killed their child because they chose not to seek medical attention for her when it was necessary.

I don't think they should go to jail for it--at a time when prisons are vastly overcrowded, to the point where offenders are being released early to make room for new inmates, that would be rather a waste--but what they did was certainly extremely and tragically negligent. I'm disgusted.

I don't think it's not that fine of a line. If you have a child, you provide care, if you don't then you are negligent, if your child dies because of this negligence then you are responsible. Depending on the cause of death and the details of the case the court's and a jury of your peers will decide the nature of your punishment. The point is, parents have a responsibility to take care of their children and when they choose themselves or even their faith over that child then there are consequences.

This case reminds me of the following story (that I'm sure other may be familiar with):

A man became stranded during a flood on the roof of his house. He prayed to God to save him. A short time later a man came floating by on a log and yelled at him to jump on so that they could float to safety together. “no thanks.” He said, “my God will save me.” Soon after a boat came by with a couple in it. They invited him to climb in and row to safety with them. “no thanks,” he said again, “my God will save me.” Finally a helicopter came by and lowered a rope for him to climb up. “no thanks,” he said, “my God will save me.”

A little bit later he was swept up in the flood and died. He arrived in heaven and met God. His first question was. “God, I prayed for you to save me, but you didn’t help me.”
The lord looked at him with loving eyes and said, “I sent a man on a log, a boat, and a helicopter, but you refused to use them.”

Needless to say, I agree with onebanana

Jail or not there needs to be punishment both because they broke the law and to deter other people from making the same choices. And there should be a Sh*tstorm over this. This is not OK. A lady in DC recently starved her 3 children to death, I don't know what she was doing but let's say she was at Church, does that mean she should not be punished.

I think choosing yourself and choosing faith are two completely different things. If someone is negligent because they are selfish that's one thing. But if someone's faith disagrees what YOU think is the proper form of treatment, that's your opinion - but it's their child, their faith. I'm not siding with these parents, I'm just saying it's a slippery soap and it IS a fine line. Let's work on getting child abusers and molesters in court with juries and let the praying parents have a little slack. Like I said, for an Amish family the option of doing chemotherapy on their child would be against all of their beliefs, and personally I don't think that's wrong. Modern medicine is not always the answer.

Oh and did your read the article? They don't seem to care! They're not afraid of being prosecuted because god is going to take care of them! What!? Yea, if there is a god, S/He is not going to be pleased you didn't help your self and help your child.

My viewpoint is that there is a difference between being religious/spiritual and losing all touch with reality. This reminded me of that story a while back when a child died because its vegan parents failed to provide enough nourishment. You have every right in the world to be religious or vegan, but if you are a responsible parent you find a way to do that without harming your child. Should they go to jail? No, they are not a threat to society. Their daughter's death should be enough punishment for their incredible stupidity.

how do YOU know what their God thinks? That's absurd.

I think Syako's right - as horrible as the child's death is, we have said in the past that a parent's religious beliefs have to be respected in this regard. I would support a full investigation to ensure that the parents actually were acting in accordance with their faith.
As parents, it's all up to our judgments and we hope we exercise all the right options.
I strongly question the long term safety and reliability of the HPV vaccines that some people want to make mandatory and don't want my young daughter to get it until more is known about it - if she gets sick tomorrow though, how much will I hate myself?

I agree with most of the posters. I believe Jude C made a good point. If an adult chooses not to get health care, that's one thing. But, if the choice is made for a child by her parents, that's a completely different issue. The article seems to state that it was pretty clear she was ill and needed medical attention. People can pray all they want, but that prayer should be supplemental to medical care and to not allow your child to receive that care is criminal.

All of the case law that I can find agrees with this stance, as well.

"Modern medicine is not always the answer."

Yes, but it could have been for this child, and because her parents made the decision not to get her medical care, this little girl died. I don't think it should ever be acceptable for parents to choose not to get their children medical care when it could save their lives.

I don't think it's a matter of opinion that "doing the best" for one's child does not involve letting one's child die. Yes, it is their child, but that makes it all the more reprehensible that, given that responsibility, they let the child die out of abstract faith rather than saving the child's life through real, practical treatment.

Agree w/ Syako all the way!

I don't think it's a slippery slope and I don't think it's a fine line. Maybe your more forgiving than I am. If it were a slippery slope then it would slope both ways. What if they weren't Christian? I know that's not the bases of your argument, but what if they believed in bloodletting? What if they thought if we drain the bad stuff out of her and pray then she will be ok? What then? I mean they believed she would get better. They wanted her to get better...what then? What if it wasn't diabetes, what if she was cut, and she bleed to death, and they thought if they prayed she would be fine? She was their child but it wasn't their life and you don't have a right to piss around with someone else's life. The Amish argument is very interesting but the courts have recognized that very unique situation and have respected it to a degree, however, there are continuing battles and discussions. I wont' pretend to understand it. I certainly believe in freedom of speech and that the difference in culture should be respected, but if there is any universal norm that should be accepted it should be "do no harm."

but to them their faith is not abstract. Like I said before I'm not siding with THESE PARENTS, but I do think we need to be careful about who and when and why we (govt) get involved with these cases because it's not always black and white - it's rarely BLACK AND WHITE! And like the above poster said, she wouldn't give her daughter the HPV vaccine, and it's her right and her child and her choice to do that because of her beliefs and worries. And what would happen if that vaccine ended up causing some other form of cancer 20 years down the road --- what then? Modern medicine is not always 100% the best option. Maybe in your mind it is, and if that's so then you can always take your children and yourself to get treated with medical care like that. But a lot of time treatment by modern medicine does more harm than help. I'm just saying...

ok let's just not get ridiculous on here. You have your opinion and I have mine and we're obviously not going to change - either of us - so I'm not going to get into the bloodletting thing and any other ridiculous idea we can throw into the mix. I think from what we've both said already we realize that we agree to disagree on this one. k?

and with that banana and jude here's a a

and I'm off to lunch ladies

back

In the case of Type I Diabetes, your body does not produce insulin PERIOD (despite what Halle Berry claimed). It's not something that just goes away or can be managed without medical treatment, EVER. It does really bother me that the parents have expressed so little remorse.

Interestingly, apparently Wisconsin has one of the least strict laws in the country regarding cases like this:

http://religiouschildabuse.blogspot.com/2008/03/wisconsin-to-true-believ...

Some of the other cases linked on the side are interesting, as well.

"but it's their child, their faith. I'm not siding with these parents, I'm just saying it's a slippery soap and it IS a fine line. Let's work on getting child abusers and molesters in court with juries and let the praying parents have a little slack. "

-I think the point is that, not getting your child the proper medical treatment IS child abuse. And you refer to the "fine line" but what if this "fine line" evolves to another couple not feeding their child because they feel the sun will be nourishment enough for him/her? I mean come on. If we have to draw the line somewhere, it should be here. Why allow it to escalate to an even worse situation?

I think we tend to use our religious beliefs for an excuse to do wrong. Think about the current situation we're in right now with Islamic extremists.

Although I do understand your point Syako, I think it is one of those topics we have to "agree to disagree" on

I know because the premise of their religion is that god is good and that god would care for this child well it seems if their god cares for children then any good god can't believe that child negligence is acceptable and across religions murder is wrong. Yes, I said..murder. They killed their daughter because they were too engulfed in their religion, too concerned with the salvation of their own souls to acknowledge her need for medical care. It was negligent homicide and they should be punished. They should be punished because they killed her, and they should be punished to deter others.

I should elaborate - prayer is not in any sense WRONG, but thinking that it is sufficient enough, is what I'd consider wrong. Especially in a case like this. We have to be more pro-active in life.

syako: I totally respect your stance on this so truce too. Happy lunch.

I agree with Syako... Its the parents choice to decide... I remember we talked about vaccines a few weeks ago and I started questioning whether or not I would want my child to get all those vaccines. I don't think anyone here is saying what these people did it right. But its not the gov't job to tell us how to care for our children.

Its very sad that this happened, but they have the right to care for their child as they see fit.

maybe that came out wrong, i meant if they have strict rules within their religion and they want to adhere to them, then that is their choice and the gov't shouldn't be involved.

Scientology is an excellent example.

I see some of you guys' points, and this is definitely an issue where none of us is probably going to change our minds but I do have to say this:

I don't think any parents have the right to kill their child. Which is what these parents' neglect of their child's treatable medical condition did. That's why there are laws in place prohibiting the abuse and neglect of one's children.

It is the government's job to step in if your hurting your child. It happens everyday. Not all parents are good parents MY friend represents kids in SoCal who have had to be removed from their homes malnourished and abused, among other things. Though you have a right to raise your child as you wish, you don't have a right to put it in harms way. When you (not you particularly) do, the state has a responsibility and a right to step in to do what is best for the kid.

I thought Jesus was pre-law, not pre-med.

I am torn because my heart says, "Throw the parents in Jail" but my head says what Syako is saying. We are getting to the point where people are attempting to out law spanking! It is getting ridiculous. I don't want the government controlling how I raise my child. In my opinion they already have too much of an influence.

"It is the government's job to step in if your hurting your child. It happens everyday. Not all parents are good parents MY friend represents kids in SoCal who have had to be removed from their homes malnourished and abused, among other things. Though you have a right to raise your child as you wish, you don't have a right to put it in harms way. When you (not you particularly) do, the state has a responsibility and a right to step in to do what is best for the kid."

I completely agree with this statement ona, but I think the difference is, that 1) they did not realize how sick their daughter was and 2) they thought they were doing what is best for their child. It is completely different then some sick *sshole who burns their child, or starves their child.

I think you guys are arguing about two different things here.

If it were against the parents religion to bring her to a hospital that'd be one thing, but that's not the case.

They either thought that A: her condition wasn't that serious and she would get better on her own, maybe with a little help from God or B: you always get what you pray for.

Anyone in their right mind knows that B isn't true. I don't care how religious you are, you know that prayer isn't 100% foolproof. You can pray for gold coins to rain down, it doesn't mean it'll happen. You have to do something to make things happen, like, take a sick person to the hospital.

Gosh, something as simple and common as diabetes caused this child to die. That is completely pointless. If you believe that God will care for you and solve your problems (as I personally do), where is the disconnect between that and modern medical science? Can't medicine be considered a gift from God?
It is a very fine line, but I'm of the opinion that the state should step in and care for a child who is not capable of helping themselves.

My BF is a type 1 diabetic, it triggered in his mid 20's and he didn't know for a little while but it became pretty obvious pretty quickly that he was very ill and needed help. He became very gaunt at 6'' and 110. Before that he was super health and athletic. beyond the weight loss there were other medical issues. I doubt the parents didn't know.

Basically sugar in your body without insulin is like acid eating away at everything, too much or too little can cause mental issues among many other problems.

Syako said, or say an amish family doesn't give their child with cancer chemo because they don't believe in modern technology

...At least you are implying that they took their kid to a doctor of some sort!

Well like the old saying goes the One helps those who help themselves.

Prayer or Meditation I believe is an instrumental tool in medicine because studies have shown that those who pray/meditate have a certain edge when it comes to recovery than those who do not. However, in this case the family just knew the girl was sick they did not have her diagnosed. On that note I think they could be held legally accountable if they had her symptoms diagnosed because then the authorities could say well you knew what it was and how serious it was and did nothing. In this case I don't think they can touch the parents.

This story breaks my heart. I agree with syako that when you start to put exceptions on people's religious freedoms the line becomes far to thin to navigate successfully. I believe these parents did neglect their child and that they should have sought medical treatment. However, there are people whose faith places them firmly against traditional modern medicine. A few hundred years ago prayer would have been a common method to cure illness but does it apply today when advancements in technology have been made? I think these parents were criminally negligent when they didn't seek help for their daughter after prayer failed to cure her. I felt the same way about the couple convicted of starving their child based on their beliefs. However, it is a delicate subject on how an individual lives their life and practices their faith. I have a family friend whose religion neglects traditional modern medicine and believes all ailments can be cured with herbs and prayer. However, when these methods didn't cure his son's cold he took him to the doctor. He recognized that his son's well being was more important. It turns out his son had contracted an illness while traveling overseas and needed several medications to fight it. I shudder to think what would have happened if he had sought treatment later.

It's heartbreaking that children die in cases like this, but the courts generally hold in favor of the parents right to decide what they believe is best for their child. People who hold to these faiths generally can come up with stories of people who were cured by prayer. There are some recoveries that medical science can't explain. I wouldn't want to bet my daughter's life on it, but my spiritual beliefs don't work that way.
You really do open a mountain of issues if the courts take this decision away from parents: is the state responsible if the parent is forced to take the child to the hospital and a hospital mistake kills the child? Who pays if the child needs specialized treatment and parents ordered to violate their religious beliefs can't afford it?

Stephley, out of curiosity, are there any specific cases you are referring to? All of the court precedents that I can find have resulted in rulings against the parents, particularly in the few cases that have made it to the Supreme Court.

The parents have a right to believe in whatever they want to believe in, as a PERSONAL right. When you step over to others, including your own children, I feel that there's a big difference. Everyone wants to raise their children to have their faith and the way they personally feel is "right". But they also have an obligation to reserve the other's personal rights. This child was too young to discern what was happening to herself, and her parents refused her the right to medical care, because of their personal beliefs. This child did not have to die. And now we'll never know if that child would have grown up to share her parent's faith, or became catholic, or atheist, or agnostic, or a plethora of other religions. When dealing with those that do not have the ability to decide for themselves, I believe we should err on the side of caution not on the side of the decision maker's religion.

That's the problem with all these laws, these parents have honestly committed a crime in my eyes by letting their child die since any educated person knows that you cannot treat diabetes without some form of medical attention but since the law doesn't see it like that oh well, you can't have one law for one group of people nd one law for another group of people. this right here is where i believe the law is freking b**ch.