Warning! What follows is purely opinion. I'm sure there are quite a few out there who will disagree . . . Let us know, won't you?
Citizen: There's a fairytale that tells the story of a leader who is so taken with the creation of his own image, and his supporters are so equally under his spell, that they'll let him walk around naked, rather than disavow him of the idea that he's wearing a beautiful suit of silken threads. That story haunted me last night.
My mission last night was to watch Barack Obama. (Liberty and I each picked a candidate we weren't voting for, to try to glean a little perspective.) And I tried. Oh, lord did I try. In the harsh light of day, even while the replay of the debate flickers in my face, I'm left empty. I'm not entirely convinced that Obama's continual refrain of "I agree with Senator Clinton" is the basis for a strong case for nomination.
And I admit: I peeked. I paid rapt attention to every detailed, feasible plan Hillary laid forth. Her unflappable competence was more compelling to me than a truckload of platitudes. I listened to Hillary, and though my vote isn't hers, I agree with and apply this, her final sentiment from last night: If Hillary is elected, we will be fine. America will be fine.
After the convention, if Obama walks away with the nomination, I fear his candidacy will be the ultimate political embodiment of The Emperor's New Clothes. His beautiful words nothing but a transparent silken suit, his followers left to choose a man naked of plan and experience because, well, he just looked so darn good on the rack.
Liberty: So, the big Xerox comment . . . Meh? I don't feel as heated as some about the whole "plagiarizing" debate. I assume that an army of advisers and speech writers are contributing to each candidate's material. Did Hillary write the Xerox comment herself? Given the uncomfortable delivery of the YouTube follow-up, it's doubtful. I know it's different than Obama pulling complete passages, but come on — the "silly season" comment stands. Is this the kind of stuff Americans care about?
But now that it's the reigning soundbite, Hillary should use the attention the Xerox zinger got to drive home the idea that Obama lacks substance. Clinton's ability to express distilled yet comprehensive plans that will address specific problems seriously impressed me.
Overall, I left wanting more. Nothing new came out. I know they disagree about a healthcare mandate. I know Barack was against the war, and Hillary voted for it. My parting sentiment mirrored that of Hillary's — My vote has already been cast, it's almost over, and I just hope that whatever happens, as a nation, we will soon roll up our sleeves and start solving problems.
For pointed video of Hillary "recycling" a few campaign sentiments of her own, and the actual quote of Hillary's "Xerox" comment, read more.
Hillary Clinton:
Well, I think that if your candidacy is going to be about words, then they should be your own words. That's, I think, a very simple proposition. (Applause.) And you know — you know, lifting whole passages from someone else's speeches is not change you can believe in; it's change you can Xerox.
Hmm . . . roll tape?
Dolce & Gabbana
ras
John Lewis
Nothing new came out. What did you expect? The only real difference in their plans for our country is that one little point of their health care ideas. The debates aren't going to get interesting with conflicts until one of them is on stage with McCain after the nominations.
If we had had voting reform and were able to rank top candidates then this silly season would be super lame and those supporting Democrats could be less divisive with their choices.
1im still on the clinton team. bah.
2Citizen, I think you hit the nail on the head when you say, "I'm not entirely convinced that Obama's continual refrain of "I agree with Hillary Clinton" is the basis of a strong case for nomination."
I have been on the fence about which candidate I will vote for in the primary. (I live in Texas.) I feel like because I don't fully support Obama, I must be crazy! I must be missing out on something the whole world sees but me! So, last night I watched the debate and analyzed every word, every nuance of Obama's. And you're right. Nothing new. Like Liberty said-we've heard it all before.
I don't want to jump on the "xerox" bandwagon or even the "Yes We Will" bandwagon. I'm just feeling like today, I support Hillary a little more. Healthcare is one of my main issues and I know Hillary KNOWS healthcare. Thats the only straw I can grasp at today.
3Are you like me, banana? I'm on the Clinton team, but I'm not EXCITED about it? People on the Obama team are SO excited! Why can't I get that w/ Hillary? I find myself defending it.
4Citizen, I totally disagree with you. As someone who does support Obama, I find it disheartening that someone would indirectly describe me as a braindead follower that only likes him because he "looks good on the rack".
Disclaimer - I don't enjoy watching the debates. I don't think that it is a simulated environment for any type of presidential duty. Presidents create policy (written word) and deliver speeches. Debates encourage candidates to simplify incredibly complex ideas and break them into little pieces so that your average joe in America can understand it. So, it often turns out that the candidate with the most general statements and witty retorts comes out on top. I don't need catchphrases....Bush gave us enough of those, but created policy that has weakened our country. So please, give me the person with the best ideas and not the most choice soundbites.
Lastly, if you actually want to know why many Americans are chosing Obama, you should visit his website and read his ideas on the issues, and his plans for policy. They will tell you more than you'll ever get from a debate.
5I agree w/ you too, Juju...I DON'T think Obama supporters are being "lulled" or hypnotized by promises or false promises. I think his message is SO inspirational! Hearing him speak brings tears to my eyes! And I think his platform is great too...
I have never, ever been undecided before...it brings me so much ANXIETY!
6Personally, I just want to get past the nomination and onto the general election. For me the ultimate goal is to get a democrat elected, be it Hillary or Obama.
7I agree that he's inspirational, but I'm still having a hard time figuring out what he stands for.
8I never get much out of the debates beyond who's feeling their oats and who's shrinking. From that view, I thought Obama looked stronger, while Hillary needed to land some blows. I can sort of see the fear that Obama could be a naked emperor if you base your vote soley on the debates; but I've seen presidents take office with detailed laundry lists of what they wanted to do and how they wanted to do it and seen much of it come to little or nothing (Carter and Clinton come to mind). I think if Obama came up against a wall like Newt Gingrich has been in the past, he more than Hillary, would be able to figure out how to either get around the wall or make it work for him. She would fight - we've had too many years of that.
9Yeah, Doc...I kind of think he stands for whatever Hillary stands for and vice versa.
10I agree that health care is a critically important issue, and one that needs to be addressed. I work in HR and deal with insurance plans on a daily basis. I feel very strongly that Hillary's plan will never pass, and we will be stuck in the same situation that we have now.
Hillary wants to force people to have health care coverage. She will garnish your wages to collect on the premiums whether you like it or not. If you refuse, you get a fine. Currently in Massachusetts, they have a similar system. A close friend of mine was a waitress right out of college, and for her income bracket the mandatory insurance would have been $400 a month. That was almost as much as her rent!
Obama's health care plan is brilliant. He would work to fight the monopolization of the industry (currently there are only a couple main companies that are running the game and driving up premiums at least 20% each year, while reducing benefits). He would also create a monitor to enforce rules and standards for coverage, so insurance companies will quit playing doctor and let the physicians do their job.
Lastly, he would remove the insurance company's ability to deny or limit coverage based on medical history. HIPAA was enacted a while ago and was supposed to help, but insurance companies are finding ways around it. Example: A co-worker has a son that was recently diagnosed with cystic fibrosus. We received quotes for insurance renewal from insurance companies. When the compaies found out that we had a dependent of an employee that had this condition, they either RAISED their rates or pulled their proposals entirely. My whole nation-wide company is going to suffer because insurance companies don't want to cover this poor boy. Our rates went up, which means our employees will have to contribute more out of their pockets for their coverage.
Obama's plan offers coverage to those that want it (regardless of history) and will make plans more affordable by monitoring the industry, cracking down on pharmaceutical overcharging, and breaking up the monopoly. Sorry to go off on a tanget, it's just that every day I see upclose what is wrong with the insurance industry, and for once I have hope that it can be fixed!
11Plus, last night, the "question askers" (I don't know if there is a technical name for them) kept trying to ask other questions while either Barack or Hillary were explaining their differences. That annoyed me. We know they have similarities, I need to know SPECIFICALLY how they differ.
There was a point when they were debating healthcare and Hillary was trying to explain her differences and the Univision guy cut her off to ask her if she thought Barack would be ready to be president on day one.
Who cares? I need to know what their differences are.
12juju, do both candidates want to impose fines for people who refuse healthcare? or is that just Hillary? If so, how much are they?
13Just curious...
Citizen, have you actually looked at the vast amount of specific details that Obama has laid out on his website? There are so many specific details, I don't see how anyone who has done their research could say that he "has no clothes".
The debates remind me of high school. Some students excel at pop quizes (Hillary) and some excel at essay questions (Obama). I feel that his well thought out plans are the BEST ANSWERS to our many issues. Hillary's economic and health care plans are not good solutions. She might have sassy ways to present them, but the plans themselves lack so much. Obama's many, many accomplishments in the State Senate show he knows how to bring something to the table that can actually get done...unlike Hillary.
Obama has complicated answers to America's problems, because the problems themselves are very complicated. Complicated answers don't lend themselves to debates.
14Yayy!! for us for actually having a discussion about something more pertinent than the new spring handbags (although I do love those..)
A few points:
1) I became an Obama supporter when I read both his books, reviewed his voting record in the Senate, and researched his views. Yes, he is very eloquent, but that is not the basis of my support, and since when is it a crime to be well spoken? Obama has learned that the people want a President who most of all listens, is aware of their lives and situations, and understands the importance of being present with them. These are skills that are not to be trifled with. (However, don't be fooled: I believe that now is the time for Senator Obama to be more detailed in his plans for the nation. Although I plan on voting for him, I will hold him, and all other elected officials, accountable for their choices)
2) All candidates have staff writers. Enough said.
3) I would have loved to see Hillary focus more on herself during this campaign. It turned ugly early on, and it didn't have to be that way. She could have easily made it a point to differentiate herself from Barack- because ultimately, their beliefs are somewhat similar- but she did not.
4) I am tired of the "On day one" speech from Senator Clinton. Truthfully, any president who stays within the jurisdiction of the Constitution will not have the wherewithal to do anything on day one - or day 2, 3, or 4, for that matter. Please stop telling people that. She will still have to work with Congress, and if she is unable to drum up bipartisan support, she will tread water like so many presidents with good ideas before her.
15jill, i think it was supposed to only be based on what was said in the debate...
16Juju, you raise so many good points!
I don't think soem people will read your long post though. It is easier to ignore the nitty gritty, and just focus on sassy slogans.
Citizen, did you not notice the times when Hillary said she agreed with Obama?
17"his followers left to choose a man naked of plan and experience"
Wow, I am really disappointed. I don't feel that anyone who has done their homework would say this.
Here is a link to his PLAN, "Blueprint for Change".
http://www.barackobama.com/issues/
18Hiya Jillness,
I was basing my opinion on the debate last night, and I agree with you--there are lots of plans on Obama's website. But, and I might be mistaken in thinking this, plans on a website are just as likely to have been crafted by the same teams of advisers and message shapers that speeches are. And yes, all politicians have those teams.
However, I think the big difference is Hillary's being able to articulate those plans so fully. In the same way that it's one thing to understand a subject, and a lot harder to teach it, her having such a solid grasp on the details of her agenda, and understanding it enough to teach it to us makes the difference for me.
I think, and everyone's entirely entitled their own opinion, but I'd rather vote for a candidate than a website.
19CandyCR- Only Hillary would impose fines. That is the major difference between their plans. She wants "mandatory" coverage for everyone and he just wants coverage available to everyone.
I believe that it is this difference that will keep moderates and republicans from approving the plan and/or supporting her in the general election.
20juju, I think moderates and republicans have bought into Bush's fear mongering and they care a whole heckuva lot about National Security too...and any democratic candidate that wants those votes needs to lay out a tough, specific plan to protect us against terrorism.
21To anyone who has concerns about Obama's experience or substance, I suggest you check out the following two links; the first contrasts his legislative record with Hillary's; the second focuses on the bills he has initiated, which ones have passed and so forth. I find it especially interesting that while she has more "experience" he has been more successfull in PASSING legislation. At the end of the day, we need a president who is not so divisive that nothing gets done.
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/2/20/201332/807/36/458633
http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/2/21/164117/783/290/461422
22And- Citizen & Jillness...I love both of your opinions and really consider them with a heavy heart. But for me, I just want my team (the Dems) to win!
Do you think there is any truth to one candidate being MORE electable against the Republicans than another?
23Nykundi - great post! Thank you for these links.
24Who would ever promote a junior executive with two years experience to be president of the company? Obama has no serious record of making hard decisions and the ones he's made displays no indication that he'll be any different than anyone else. When he's put up against McCain, everyone will see that he has no plan, no agenda and no credibility. If he wins the nomination, be prepared for four years of President McCain, because the Republicans are going to rip him to shreds.
25Democratic debates are like elementary school science fairs. You've already seen it all before, last year, but everyone still gets points for trying. And, even the winner is, you know, a loser.
26"I'd rather vote for a candidate than a website."
Google.com 2012
I said it here, first.
27Radicaronne, I am hoping that the american people will review Obama's Blueprint for Change (an incredibly detailed PLAN, complete with what he has already done on each of the major issues) and contrast that with McCains PLAN to stay in iraq for the next 100 years or "bomb bomb Iran" and see that the choice is clear. If not, we deserve just what we get. But I think we will get a new leader with a vision, a plan, and the ability to inspire the disillusioned youth. That leader is Senator Obama. I personally have never been as excited about politics in my life. If Hillary is our nominee I will campaign for her with my last breath but it won't be with joy in my heart. If its Obama I will gladly and enthusiastically do anything in my power to make sure he is our next president. whew thats long, I"m sorry!
28"Do you think there is any truth to one candidate being MORE electable against the Republicans than another?"
I really do think there is truth to that. Independents are coming out primarily to support Obama and I believe their votes will definitely go to McCain if Hillary is the Democratic nominee. I am one of those people in that camp. Obama is running? He gets my vote. Hillary is running? I'm all about McCain.
Do my ideals align better with Hillary's than McCain's? Almost certainly. However, I simply cannot stand behind someone that I do not respect as a person, no matter how much I agree with them.
29I'm not sure what to add, juju, Jillness and AlyCat82 have already made extremely valid points in this discussion and have said more than I could ever articulate. I agree, I'm sick to my stomach of the Day One speeches by Clinton. I still can't figure out what she means by that, it's really a weak slogan...is a candidate really going to say 'I'm going to be ready to run this country on Day Two'? That is nonsensical, to say the very least. She needs better campaign managers/speech writers/advisors, she's seriously lacking. She very good at throwing barbs also, I think all bark, I can't see where the bite is. She certainly isn't biting into Obama's lead. If anything SHE'S the one that the fantastic orator with no results because she just can't reach the people. I don't believe that those who oppose Obama can understand where his supporters are coming from because they just don't see the REAL crisis this country is in. People are hungry for a turnaround, no more nightmares and headaches about our economic situation and not having proper healthcare options that are affordable. Despite Hillary's plan, she hasn't given ENOUGH of an impact on the public so they would look to her as a competent leader. Have you seen Obama when he speaks? He is the most confident man I've ever laid my eyes upon, not in an arrogant way...he does not give off those vibes. He's extremely passionate about the 'changes' he can make in this country and it shines through and reaches the masses.
Also, Obama's website has so much information about his stance on the issues(I already made a blog about this days ago), he's leaving NO stone unturned. I wish more people would take the initiative to read and become educated on the real stuff. But isn't it just like 'American society' to just want to watch tv, watch the debates and take what you see and make it out to be gospel? Get the facts, read and make up your OWN mind.
30Do you guys think that Americans are inherently pessimistic/cynical about politics? Can we even process a positive message?
31I agree with you wholeheartedly, nykundi. John McCain is just all about the war and fighting and portraying himself as a war hero. The Republicans are really the blind followers here, IF they support this man. He is talking about attacking Iran, who poses no REAL threat to the US. He's going to start World War 3(if not 4, if you count the War Against Terrorism in Iraq, the killing of the innocent Iraqi women and children) if he is voted into office. I shudder to think what will happen. It would be hell on Earth. I would seriously consider emigrating if it comes to that.
32I'm sure his staffers pulled an extra-super-hard all-nighter to put that together, but having a plan isn't the same as being able to execute it. See: Iraq.
33For people who believe that Obama is an empty suit, I'd encourage them to not only look at his site, but also at this one:
http://obsidianwings.blogs.com/obsidian_wings/2008/02/all-the-rest.html
The writer went through and found all the legislation both Obama and Clinton sponsored while in the US Senate. It might surprise people who believe that Hillary has accomplished more in her time in the Senate.
Additionally, in the IL Senate, Obama sponsored and was instrumental in passing death penalty reforms, expanding health insurance for children, got police to agree to videotape all suspect interrogations for murder cases, passed an anti-racial-profiling law, and became a national critic of the war in Iraq, torture, and rendition.
34Liberty Sugar: Yes, I do. I'm cynical myself but I believe in Obama. I'll fight tooth and nail for him, that's how much he has INSPIRED me to want nothing but the very best for this country and in my opinion, that's what he is: the best candidate we've got and a class act to boot. He will make us all very proud to be American or an American resident, like myself.
35Liberty, I think we learn to be more careful and investigate more fully as we get older. At least that is what I do. I don't just follow blindly along or listen to one or two sources of media.
If a message is positive I have no problem with that but if it seems empty then it makes me nervous. I want someone who is very competent.
36redegg: Why do you feel that Obama's message is empty? Why does inspiration have to feel hollow? What is so untrustworthy about this candidate? I'm just curious, that's all. Honest.
37Liberty, I don't think Americans are inherently pessismistic about politics...At least I'm not. I BECAME that way under the Dictatorial rule of George W.
I think most Americans are completely disillusioned by politics. Its sad. We're a democracy and I wish more people would participate.
I'm moving to France.
38You know, each and every time we elect a new President there exists a possibility that he or she will disappoint. I didn't vote for Bush(I wasn't old enough in 2000 anyways), but for those who did I'm sure a lot of them wish his now seven years had carried different results. I don't understand how this worry could only be applied on Obama, and not Hillary and McCain.( And, yes, the experience. Their experience didn't stop them from making grave mistakes in the 80's and 90's, and perhaps some even closer to date. If they were so wise and so tested, then they shouldn't have made those mistakes in their 40's, 50's and 60's.)
His strength has never been the debates, it was always, also back in the day when there was a whole line of candidates to choose from; Hillary's strength. She is, and was last night, solid. So, his strength is speeches, and hers are debates. They are both good qualities. But to exclude one or the other candidate for such one dimensional reasons, not to speak of their policies and plans, seems quite limp.
I did not choose Obama over Hillary because she's not a rock star. I chose him because I went to their websites and read their plans thoroughly, and much preferred his health care plan and changes in foreign policy, and liked his over all view on economics. While she wants to treat the symptoms of this recession, he opts for curing the disease. She thinks that giving people money, or delay foreclosure deadlines by 3 months, is solutions. I'm sure that sounds good on the stomp, but it's not going to change or help our economy.
"his followers left to choose a man naked of plan and experience"
That insinuation is more an impulse of emotion, rather than an investigated thought. I am sick and tired of being pigeon holed being an Obama supporter. You would think we worship the devil or something. If anything, the debates on Citizensugar is evidence that many highly independent and intelligent women vote for and support Barack Obama.
McCain didn't get this kind of scrutiny after his last debate when he attacked Mitt Romney and had an over all very disappointing appearance. And his supporters didn't either.
39indielove, I didn't say anything about Obama.
40"That insinuation is more an impulse of emotion, rather than an investigated thought. I am sick and tired of being pigeon holed being an Obama supporter. You would think we worship the devil or something. If anything, the debates on Citizensugar is evidence that many highly independent and intelligent women vote for and support Barack Obama"
I applaud you do much for the well-written and eloquent statement, trésjolie. I could not have said it better myself!
41Oh but your comment spoke VOLUMES. I would simply ADORE an answer to my questions though. Somebody? Anybody?
And candycr, I agree...after having to deal with Bush and seeing that Obama is the polar opposite, at least in my mind, I believe he's the best candidate for President.
42I believe that in comparison to Bush, Obama represents the most CHANGE. I can barely stomach another day of embarassment by having that murderous war criminal as our president.
But, my struggle is: Do I want someone that knows how to play the game? Hillary
43Or someone that will refuse to play the game? Barack
I missed the debate but did anyone happen to catch the article on msnbc this morning about Hillary's campaign spending? I thought it was very interesting and, for me, raises issues on how she can manage things....(I know she has people who manage things for her but still, she calls the shots)
44Indie, I think you may be acting a tad bit defensive towards redegg because you are used to (and tired of) having to defend your support of Barack...redegg is my friend & she is good people. I promise!
45Tresjolie- really great post! I totally agree with SO much of what you said. Your first paragraph touches on a topic that has weighed on my mind for quite some time.
46Yes, I'm very tired of being on the defense but hey, by any means necessary. I still have no problem with defending him though, all day, every day...I'm ready.
I have no problem with redegg. I just wanted to hear(read) her thoughts on that specific point that she made. No attacks made here.
47God, Please not somebody who plays the game! We need someone to lead us and to encourage us to try and stop the game-playing, or change the rules to include careful thought, respect for the rule of law, compassion, tolerance. I think Hillary's too invested in winning the game to be that person... and I think a lot of people are afraid to support Obama because they don't want to be seen as dreamers. Any time a candidate says he (or she) is willing to talk to an enemy they're called weak. That has to stop. And the poor people in this country didn't all get that way because they weren't willing to work - it has a lot more to do with companies like Wal Mart. Hillary's not going to press them too hard to change. Cheney and Rumsfield came in to office with boatloads of experience, and nearly four thousand American soldiers are dead, tens of thousands of others have life-altering wounds, and by cautious accounts, 600-thousand Iraqis are dead. No more tough guys playing games. Please
48I'm a middle child = mediator, can you tell?
Cumbaya...
I wish I had the excitement you guys have for EITHER candidate. I hoping it will just appear to me in the next week before I have to go to the booth on Tuesday.
49stephley; well said!
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